TALKBACK #25: GMK

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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:19 pm

Benjamin Haines wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I mean, did Toho rush in and say....."Have there be at least two separate occasions where characters reference an object or a gesture that is so unbelievably subtle that people watching the movie multiple times will still not understand what they mean by 'it's not there anymore' and 'that gesture he made in the cell' because that's just how we do things here at Toho"?


While I also have no idea what is supposed to have disappeared in that scene with the trio looking at the camcorder in the forest, the original dialogue referring to Isiyama and the stone is simply:

    Third Wheel: "He touched your hand in the cell." -imitates with own hand-
    Yuri: "He meant this stone."
They don't actually say that Isiyama made a gesture that we're supposed to have noticed. The English dub and accompanying dubtitles (which are apparently retained on the recent bluray) take the basic core of the dialogue and manage to spit it out as something stupid, as the '90s-onward dubs usually do.

That's still just as bad. "He meant this stone." ??? How the would anyone know that? DUMB.

This is why I don't agree with people who say the true subtitles make everything SO much better. I've heard some of the differences, the only significant difference is the "YEAH!" after Ghidorah gets hit with the missile. It's a pretentious blowhard of a movie on its own. Dubtitles or accurate subs.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:25 pm

^ To be fair, there are probably a lot of spiritual/supernatural undertones in Japanese cinema that is lost on western viewers. Maybe this is one of those instances. I recall reading an interview about GMK having a ton of Shinto influences. I'm over my head in really trying to understand all the niches of the culture, but it seems to me that most of the audience would have grasped that.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Gman2887 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:08 pm

Hybrid Gojira wrote:^ To be fair, there are probably a lot of spiritual/supernatural undertones in Japanese cinema that is lost on western viewers. Maybe this is one of those instances. I recall reading an interview about GMK having a ton of Shinto influences. I'm over my head in really trying to understand all the niches of the culture, but it seems to me that most of the audience would have grasped that.


Exactly. That's why I can't really respect comments like, "This was pretty stupid..." etc. There's a lot lost in translation that has nothing to do with subtitles and dubtitles. I'm no cultural scholar, but every time I look into this movie I realize there's a lot about it that I don't quite grasp from a cultural perspective. I remember Kieth once saying it was a, "very Japanese film" and it becomes more apparent what that means with every viewing. (Sony's dubtitles don't help matters though.)
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:13 pm

I'm sorry, I don't buy that just because I'm not Japanese, these silly (stupid) aspects are less silly (stupid).

Especially stuff like, "When he touched your hand in the cell he meant this stone." That's a level of goofy that transcends language/cultural barriers.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Fri Dec 12, 2014 1:23 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I'm sorry, I don't buy that just because I'm not Japanese, these silly (stupid) aspects are less silly (stupid).

Especially stuff like, "When he touched your hand in the cell he meant this stone." That's a level of goofy that transcends language/cultural barriers.


There's a difference between a cultural reference that most of the audience already gets and a major plot point that is just glossed over. This could be either or maybe even both. I think we have to acknowledge that.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:12 pm

I guess I refuse to acknowledge it, then.

I never found the notion of Godzilla being some sort of spiritual harbinger to be stupid, it's the EXECUTION of this stuff that is dumb, not the concepts themselves.

It's silly. "He touched his hand to the glass. He clearly meant this rock."
No. He didn't CLEARLY mean a rock, it's just goofy nonsense.

Just like the "What was that on the camera? It disappeared." he first time I watched the movie, I just breezed past it because I was like, "What? Well, let's watch the rest of the movie." The second time though, I rewound that scene like 5 times trying to figure out what the hell I was supposed to even be looking for...and if it's supposed to be King Ghidorah's horns as I've heard argued: how can it be his horns if he's frozen in ice? What kinda sense does that make?

That's not a cultural gap, that's a universal goofiness that doesn't add up in a logical way.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby klen7 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:45 pm

jellydonut25 wrote: I rewound that scene like 5 times trying to figure out what the hell I was supposed to even be looking for...and if it's supposed to be King Ghidorah's horns as I've heard argued: how can it be his horns if he's frozen in ice? What kinda sense does that make?

See what you are missing is that Kaneko is a genius. This is actually a reference to Destroy All Monsters. Just as Baragon was replaced by Gorosaurus in the Paris attack but the script wasn't updated, this clear reference to Angurius was left in the script when he was replaced by King Ghidorah. It's a meta nod to a classic film.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby daikaijusaurus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:39 pm

My wife is Japanese, born and raised in Japan, and spent most of her life in Japan before she moved to the states. When we watched this movie together a few months back, she found it to be pretty unusual, particularly the parts with the stones containing the souls and also the souls of the dead inside Godzilla. So this is not a "Japanese" thing, but this is more of a "Kaneko" thing. And at the same time, she loved Gamera 1 and 2 but felt Gamera 3 was also a bit unusual for the same reasons as GMK.

For me, I love GMK for what it is, an enjoyable movie with a complete baddass Godzilla. I love the FX, battles and the destruction, but I really don't care for the unusual spiritual tones of the movie, same as Gamera 3. So from what my wife tells me, the spiritual tones of these two movies are not really Japanese, so if anyone feels that we don't understand them because we are not Japanese is not true at all. My guess is that many Japanese would feel the same as we do, because an unusual movie is an unusual movie no matter what country you're from :lol:
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby daikaijusaurus » Fri Dec 12, 2014 7:52 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:
That's not a cultural gap, that's a universal goofiness that doesn't add up in a logical way.


LOL!!! When it comes to GMK, my wife and I totally agree with your assumption :lol:
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby lhb412 » Fri Dec 12, 2014 8:26 pm

I don't think it's a cultural gap, either. In great films like Spirited Away, Pom Poko, and Yokai Daisenso you have a reliance on Japanese mythological thinking and once you grasp a few key things they make sense as stories. You'll probably want to know more, but sitting there watching the movie you're fine. GMK's mythology feels all muddled.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:55 am

lhb412 wrote:I don't think it's a cultural gap, either. In great films like Spirited Away, Pom Poko, and Yokai Daisenso you have a reliance on Japanese mythological thinking and once you grasp a few key things they make sense as stories. You'll probably want to know more, but sitting there watching the movie you're fine. GMK's mythology feels all muddled.


Most of what I wrote before was also based on articles I read about GMK when it first came out. I do agree that Kaneko glossed over some stuff...it doesn't seem like it's simply a case of a cultural reference.

The biggest travesty with this film is that Anguirus and Varan weren't used. Ghidorah was neutered in this film and I really, really hate the design. Mothra is just kinda....there.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby DannyBeane » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:59 am

Hybrid Gojira wrote:
lhb412 wrote:I don't think it's a cultural gap, either. In great films like Spirited Away, Pom Poko, and Yokai Daisenso you have a reliance on Japanese mythological thinking and once you grasp a few key things they make sense as stories. You'll probably want to know more, but sitting there watching the movie you're fine. GMK's mythology feels all muddled.


Most of what I wrote before was also based on articles I read about GMK when it first came out. I do agree that Kaneko glossed over some stuff...it doesn't seem like it's simply a case of a cultural reference.

The biggest travesty with this film is that Anguirus and Varan weren't used. Ghidorah was neutered in this film and I really, really hate the design. Mothra is just kinda....there.

As Anguirus is practically my spirit animal I am glad he wasn't used in GMK if the alleged maquette was factual. That design was hideous worse than GMK KG's design imo. He looked like a spiky poodle/pokemon hybrid. The Varan maquette looked alright though.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby MekaGojira3k » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:43 am

I don't mind it, especially since I imagine it'd be a lot closer to the regular Angilas as far as how the body was going to end up as a suit. The Soukougeki-Goji suit looked a lot different in maquette than stance. I also suspect the poodle aspect wouldn't be as obvious as the quadruped/ankylosaur thing being highlighted.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby kiryugoji04 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:00 pm

I LOVE that maquette. Probably would have been my favorite Anguirus design if it'd been used.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby DannyBeane » Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:36 pm

Not trashing your opinion but what do you like about the design?
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The face is alright but the head looks too big for the body. The spikes are too big and make his shell look too small. His tail is also too short with the club being too big. It looks like its going to snap off if he tries to swing it at anything. Also his legs look too long and make his proportions look odd. The design just rubs me in all the wrong ways. Then again I'm probably an old fogey that hates change.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby klen7 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:06 pm

I wasn't crazy about that Anguirus, but i got a very canine feeling from Baragon seeing him in action, and I can see both Varan and Anguirus having a canine feel as well from the maquettes. So i think the Anguirus design works only because of the other two suits. If Kaneko had used that Anguirus instead of Baragon, i don't think i would have liked it.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby kiryugoji04 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:26 am

DannyBeane wrote:Then again I'm probably an old fogey that hates change.


Probably.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Benjamin Haines » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:20 am

I dig all of the GMK maquettes. I think Anguirus looks regal, like an ankylosaur with a dragonlike head. While the King Ghidorah we ended up with looked puny compared to prior incarnations, the way that Anguirus maquette's legs are structured suggests that he would have stood tall on all four feet instead of on his knees. If the FX crew had pulled a Death Ghidorah and had two suit actors to make Anguirus walk around, that would have made him a quadruped who stood at eye level with Godzilla, very imposing.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby klen7 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:58 am

Benjamin Haines wrote:the way that Anguirus maquette's legs are structured suggests that he would have stood tall on all four feet instead of on his knees. If the FX crew had pulled a Death Ghidorah and had two suit actors to make Anguirus walk around, that would have made him a quadruped who stood at eye level with Godzilla, very imposing.

Interesting, i had never considered two suit actors for this suit... it makes a lot of sense.

Compared to the implementation of Baragon, it looks like Anguirus would have been taller but still shy of being "eye to eye" with the suit actor inside the Godzilla suit. They probably would have done two smaller suit actors, similar to getting a smaller suit actress for Baragon.

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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby kiryugoji04 » Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:19 pm

The crazy size differences are probably my favorite aspect of GMK. The genre needs to do that more often.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby MekaGojira3k » Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:12 am

kiryugoji04 wrote:The crazy size differences are probably my favorite aspect of GMK. The genre needs to do that more often.

Yeah. I love how scrappy Baragon was. I also kind of dig a faster/smaller Mothra.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby daikaijusaurus » Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:25 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:Yeah. I love how scrappy Baragon was. I also kind of dig a faster/smaller Mothra.


I have never cared for Mothra, but the GMK Mothra is actually my favorite rendition of her. She looks more like a wasp than a moth, and is lethal and beautiful at the same time. My only complaint is her size. Instead of so much smaller I preferred if she was so much bigger, so she can actually be a threat to Godzilla rather than a fly to be swatted. The same with Baragon, whose design is beautiful but like Mothra was not much of a challenge and was killed fairly easily.

Ghidorah on the other hand was the only kaiju that was a real threat, but by far this was the poorest and the most boring rendition of Ghidorah I've seen. I understand that Toho had to force Mothra on this movie because of her popularity, but I really wish they would've allowed Angilas to be the final foe for Godzilla instead of Ghidorah. Ghidorah just did not belong in this movie, he was just so out of place.

Oh well...
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:01 pm

I thought Ghidorah replaced Varan...no?
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby daikaijusaurus » Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:39 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I thought Ghidorah replaced Varan...no?


Mmm, not sure exactly who was supposed to replace who. I think I remember reading years ago that Angilas was supposed to be like a "final foe" for Godzilla, which ended up being Ghidorah. And Varan was supposed be in Mothra's place, which makes sense since Varan is a sea creature and the Mothra larvae is not (her rising from the lake and spinning cocoons around those teenagers seems so out of character for her).

In any case, I'm perfectly okay with Varan being the final foe. I think he would've been a lot better than Ghidorah.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Benjamin Haines » Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:48 pm

Varan definitely would have taken Mothra's role, emerging from the bottom of Lake Ikeda and then flying across Japan to battle Godzilla in Yokohama.

Suit designer Fuyuki Shinada did give Ghidorah spikes on the back of his jaws as an homage to Varan.
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