Godzilla KOTM... from the Criterion Collection!?!?!

[Benjamin Haines]

Regarding the English-language versions, I'm glad that the US cut of King Kong vs. Godzilla is included in the Criterion set. It was one of my least favorite Godzilla movies as a kid and I don't feel attached to that version so I never got Universal's 2014 BRD. I think the last time I watched the US version was when Universal released their DVD in 2005 so I'd like to revisit it in HD.

This set will also have the full English dub for Monster Zero / Astro Monster complete with the extra line from Nick Adams that wasn't in the US cut. Coupled with the new English subtitle translation for the Japanese version, I'd say that will make this the best presentation of that movie to date.

Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla will have the classic dub that we all know and love. That movie has been out of print in North America for years and now it's making a dual-language comeback on BRD.

Terror of Mechagodzilla will be uncut and also have its one familiar dub. I'm watching it on the Classic Media DVD right now, which I've very much appreciated for the past eleven years, and I look forward to Criterion's upgrade for my favorite Godzilla flick.

Oh, and this will be my first time getting Criterion's Godzilla and Godzilla, King of the Monsters! on BRD. I got their DVD release back in 2012 but I never double-dipped for the BRD, so that disc will be a long overdue addition to my collection.

I really wish that Toho would have let Criterion include US cuts like Godzilla vs. The Thing and the Titra/Titan dubs for movies like Destroy All Monsters. At least we don't live in a world where high-quality HD reconstructions aren't a Google search away...

[Gojira69]

So, given the fact the promotional photos for the set present it as a fait accompli, does that mean what is is what will be, its a done deal, there are absolutely no hopes the specs could change?

[Benjamin Haines]

[Gwangi]

[XvGojira]

[lhb412]

^ I also suspect Toho is easier to deal with in regards to their non-Godzilla films.

As for whether all the other contents of the set are locked down? The only thing I see mayve changing is is that some of the extra features were vaguely worded; maybe they get an extra interview or Japanese featurette in there that they're still clearing with Toho?

[Gwangi]

Can someone make a clarification on this:





It seems to me that this is just the Universal version, though the Japanese lettering might confuse some into thinking that perhaps this also has the Toho version. To my understanding (at this point), Toho has only given permission to Criterion to have the Japanese version.

[O.Supreme]

Here ya go....

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22196

Although that packaging is definitely misleading.... Though as Godzilla fans we are no stranger to that cough *Kraken release covers* cough. There are still no product details. Though if by some miracle it did include the Japanese version, I'd definitely pick this up as it's really the only thing the Criterion set offers that I don't officially already have.

As for this Criterion set parameters *set in stone*, with just three months until release, I agree with everyone here in that things will not change however....I don't know enough about Criterion to inquire as to if they have ever re-released a film, or series of films at a later date with additional material that did not appear the first time? Criterion could not have improved upon their first release of Godzilla, it was pretty darn near perfect, as I imagine many of their releases are. But in any case (especially this set), where so much is missing, one wonders if, somewhere down the road, a revised better set could be released? -The only way to know is to confirm if it's been done before....?

[canofhumdingers]

I don’t know if they’ve ever revisited a film specifically for an updated release on the same format, but they have done new restorations of previously released films for new formats. For example, many of the Kurosawa films (Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, etc) had new restorations done for their bluray releases even though they’d been released on laserdisc and dvd previously. Worth noting is that many of them simultaneously received new dvd editions (alongside the new blu rays) that supplanted the first dvd releases.

[Gwangi]

[Gojira69]

My last detraction?:

Some have said that Toho does not consider the U.S. English dubs worth saving, to which I reply they certainly do consider them worth saving when it suits their interests. How else to explain not just the inclusion of the English version of KKvG, but rather actually privileging it over the original Japanese version in this Criterion set? This was probably done as a contingency on its inclusion set by Universal, but it shows that Toho saw the worth of making it happen.

But when it comes to respect for the long-standing fan-base for Godzilla in the States, Toho does not consider us worth considering. The English-speaking fanbase for Godzilla has arguably kept the franchise alive in the West, lo these many decades despite the numerous hiatuses of the king of the monsters.

I don't need to say more. I personally feel unappreciated (as a fan who came on-board in the '60's).

And now for some words of praise:

Thank you Classic Media for valuing the Godzilla fan-base by putting together so many nearly perfect (imo) DVDs featuring Toho's Kaiju! After a few failed attempts you listened to the collectors and put together some truly wonderful discs!

Thank you Media Blasters! I know there are those willing to blame you for Toho's current intransigence, but imo I truly believe if you had followed all their requirements, nothing close to the two wonderful special edition DVDs you put out would ever have seen the light of day in the U.S. I will always treasure my two MB SE Godzilla discs.

Summing up:

Who would have thought there might come a day when we look back on the DVD-era Godzilla releases as a bit of a golden age? Seems like I will.

[Tom R VanSlambrouck]

I have this weird feeling that the FYE Steelbook is going to include the Japanese print of KKvsG. If you look at the press release for the Showa boxset not once does it mention that the Japanese print of KKvsG is going to be the first time ever that we get it in the states. Maybe its just an omission on Criterion's part and I'm just reading to much into it but don't you think that if there set would be the first time we see the Japanese cut they'd want to advertise it? So if the FYE Steelbook does indeed contain the Japanese cut then technically that would be the first time it hits stateside because it does come out a month before the Criterion set.

[Gojira69]

[Benjamin Haines]

[Dr Kain]

[Gojira69]

[jellydonut25]

There's been some interesting stuff that's come to light recently, from some people I trust, and since I don't know the extent to which this will, or won't...or even SHOULD get put out there, especially with any names attached, I'll just sort of go with the old "this is what I heard" stuff, which I admit could amount to spreading rumors, but this is from multiple people I trust and some prominent individuals within this fandom (and within Criterion)...

Apparently, in more recent years with film screenings, (when Toho KNOWS about them) they've been EXTREMELY stringent on allowing anyone to play the AIP versions of the movies and have told theaters attempting to screen them that they are completely off the table. They are considered dead works and whatever shakeup that has happened in the past 10-ish years since the CM discs, has caused Toho to want these versions to no longer be seen in any capacity moving forward: streaming, home video, theatrical...NOTHING. They want them gone. They want absolutely nothing to do with these versions largely because there's a slim chance that someone might try to step forward and claim something from these versions as their own original content that Toho is profiting off of and take Toho to court, and Toho wants no part of getting embroiled in any sort of legal issues. They want the non-Toho-sanctioned edits of the movies to be wiped from existence so there are no legal issues at all.
People who worked on this set have offered their own personal collections as resources and Toho has absolutely vetoed every attempt to do so. They've taken other avenues, such as offering up sort of re-worked edits that would only include audio tracks and other potential work-arounds, and Toho has FLAT-OUT REFUSED.

Some of this comes from cultural differences, in that in Japan, apparently, a voice actor or their estate can come after a company for something like that, but in the US, these people were paid for their contributions and have no real legal recourse...but Toho doesn't care. They become extremely arrogant and balk heavily whenever someone attempts to tell them how things are done in the US. They don't care. They are extremely competitive and think their way of doing things is better. Period.

As for why Classic Media was able to do this prior, CM inherited the rights to the AIP/UPA stuff, so they actually did control those versions outright at the time...but in the ensuing years, THOSE VERSIONS' RIGHTS have actually reverted back to Toho, and Toho now wants to squash them and ensure they don't exist moving forward because of these fears about someone stepping forward and claiming some legal action even though nobody ever came after AIP/UPA/Classic Media/whomever else ever held the rights. People working on the release have gone to meetings with Toho brass about how the sorts of fears they have aren't things that happen in the US, but Toho squashes that conversation quick and is very arrogant in thinking their way is the best and only way and that includes ways they think others could sue them (even though everyone with a brain knows some dead voice actor's family isn't gonna suddenly after 60 years come after a Godzilla Blu-ray for their 48 cents-worth of royalties).

Essentially, it's WILLFULL ignorance and arrogance on Toho's part.


That really only leaves the question of why the International dubs for Ebirah, Hedorah, and Gigan, which we know exist and are available, aren't on this release and there are two main prevailing theories:
The first is that Krakken wouldn't budge and come to the table with something reasonable for Criterion. This makes probably the most practical sense as the Krakken releases are still in circulation and they want any piece of leverage over a competitive release they can possibly have. You want a dub of Gigan? You have to get it from them. Period.
The second is that the rights have reverted back to Toho, or even that Toho in some capacity does hold these rights, but squashed them here due to their paranoia and thinking Krakken might come after them somehow.

In addition, it's been said Daiei and Toei are infinitely easier to work with, which is why you see a wider variety of releases coming from those studios and what they're willing to lend out....because they actually have people who understand how rights and royalties work in different territories and how they can get as much out there to the consumers in those territories as legally possible, while Toho just wants to do everything the Toho way.

IN FACT, there's a rumbling that Toho is even slightly jealous that there are easy-to-find, and nicely-compiled box sets of the Gamera releases in the US, but not for Godzilla, and they actually DON'T like that it's a weird hodge-podge situation...but they're too arrogant and ignorant to realize that it's their own weird "Our way or gtfoh" policies that keep people from attempting anything like that.

As for KKvG, Toho is definitely offering up the old HD transfer because they have yet to put out a release of the 4K transfer and don't want Japanese fans importing this disc as the US and Japan have the same region coding. They're specifically holding back the best-looking version of the movie from their US fanbase because they haven't yet capitalized on their own fanbase in Japan (which is HILARIOUS, considering this fandom is WAY bigger and more rabid and more willing to spend money in the US than Japan - and that comes from the mouths of every single one of the Japanese guests at G-Fest not just this year, but going back to prior years. G-Fest is bigger in the US than any Godzilla-themed con in Japan, and actors, directors, writers, composers, and special effects artist have ALL marveled at how they perceive Godzilla as still being relevant in the US while he isn't in Japan - and going even further, tokusatsu in general, which Yoshikazu Ishii and Koichi Kawakita's daughter believe to be an almost entirely dead art form, only kept on life support by a handful of indies and Bandai pumping out new Ultraman/Kamen Rider/etc toys).


Earlier I said I at least blamed Criterion somewhat, and it's still not ENTIRELY clear how much blame they might potentially have in the lack of those three international dubs, but given what people who have actually worked on this release are saying, the only party that MIGHT be at fault there that ISN'T Toho is Krakken. I'd be VERY curious to know more about this situation. Could Criterion have had those dubs at least if they'd waited a year? Or was it more like 10 years? Did Krakken say, "Yeah you can have 'em....for ten JILLION dollars"? Or did Krakken say, "Yeah it's cool" and Toho squashed it out of fear Krakken would change their minds? Or did Toho just outright straight up SQUASH it?

In any event, it's become more and more and MORE clear that this is Toho buffoonery at its worst, that at MOST Criterion and/or Krakken share a VERY SMALL part of the blame for any deficiencies in this product, and that in the years that they've spent reclaiming all the rights to everything Godzilla and trying to get away from the hodge-podge UPA/AIP/Titan/Titra/International/84/85/GRA/Gigantis type of situations, that they've also been attempting to create "one final, official version" of these movies and it's not AT ALL the old AIP versions. They don't really care about preserving them, they just want you to see things they way THEY want it presented and no other. (I'd say this also paints a pretty grim picture for ANY Toho film. It's their way, or nothing at all. Deal with it)

It's certainly a buzzkill...but of course, I'll be letting my wallet do the talking by at MOST buying this set used on eBay, and the current PLAN is to just stick with the fan restorations anyway, since they'll actually look better than Toho's bum-ass transfers AND be the versions of the movies I wanna see.

[kiryugoji04]

Man, capitalism really does ruin everything.

[klen7]

^^ That all makes sense to me. thanks for pulling that together

I would love if the international dubs were in the Criterion set (especially because those are top tier G flicks in my book) but I have the Kraken discs... and since this set wont fit on a movie shelf... i'll probably end up doing something for them anyway that will allow me to combine them

[Dr Kain]

[SeaHawk]

As a film archivist, every fabric of my being is appalled by Toho’s everlasting suppression of media history. I’m also not surprised. Same authoritarian Toho, different decade. It would only be myopic if it weren’t so calculated and intentionally destructive. It would only be annoying if the cost of these policies was limited to a few annoyed parents. These are cultural artifacts that are going to become harder and harder to track down and study or even enjoy for what they are.

It’s as if they know a substantial number of diehard fans want the US versions in good quality, or in any quality at all, and Toho doesn’t care. They don’t even see a profit incentive in sorting out the likely non-existent legal issues with the US versions.

I would really like Toho to rationalize a mass blacklisting of virtually all US versions and obligating companies to use very old transfers in light of their recent American/western outreach campaign. How is this helping? This isn’t what anybody asked for.

[O.Supreme]

[Gojira69]

[KaiserGhidorah]

Just goes to show you how disgusting and vile Toho really is as a company and how they have ZERO respect/regard for the fans. It's amazing how truly worthless they have become. Oh well....

[Gwangi]