Optimizing an HDTV for Viewing Japanese Discs

[kiryugoji04]

[canofhumdingers]

the settings will be called different things depending on the tv you have, but in general bump up color saturation and contrast just a bit and then increase the black level until the darkest areas actually as close to pure black as your tv can get (again, this will vary depending on your tv, i.e. on a regular LCD the darkest "black" is still a pretty pathetic gray).

Be gentle on the color and contrast as they only need a small boost, but the black level will likely be a more significant (though still not radical) increase.

Also, this is assuming your TV is already at least modestly calibrated. If you're running any of the manufacturer presets, do some research on how to calibrate a tv and get it looking decent before you make any adjustments to correct for Japanese sourced video. You need a good foundation to start from after all.

Just off the top of my head, assuming each setting is on a scale of 0 to 100, I'd probably say bump up the color and contrast by 5 or 10 points each and the black level 15 or 20. But that still greatly depends on how much change is observable and how your particular tv reacts to the settings.

[klen7]

Thanks!

[EddieLarkin]

Forgive me for saying so, but the information posted here and in the Hedorah/Gigan/Ebirah thread is somewhat erroneous.

The Japanese use the same video levels as everyone else (16-255), and messed up black levels are not something that are unique to Japanese discs.

This misconception comes from the analog/SD days. The IRE standard in Japan (and Europe) was 0, whilst North America used 7.5. This did result in discrepancies when viewing Japanese produced video, which had to be compensated for, but is completely irrelevant today.

That's not to say that there aren't any issues with transfers like Godzilla vs. Biollante (the Echo Bridge disc anyway). That one is a prime example of messed up black levels, but to suggest that it's a problem to be found across all Japanese Blu-rays and many US discs using Japanese transfers is completely wrong.

What the actual issue here is discs being made to conform to PC video levels (0-255), instead of studio levels (16-255). Your TV (whether you're in the States, Japan or Europe) is made to output black based on studio levels. But if a transfer is done to PC levels, the blacks end up washed out on your TV. There are plenty of US and UK Blu-rays of films with no connection to Japan whatsoever that suffer from this problem. There is a list in the following link, with some further details on this problem:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1496542/blu-r ... -pc-levels

Case in point, whilst the Echo Bridge disc of Biollante looks awful and completely washed out, the original Japanese Blu-ray looks fine. There are some caps of it here (displaying on a non-Japanese TV):

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1181538/all-g ... t_17422210

Compare the opening credit cap to this one from the Echo Bridge disc:

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/screensho ... position=6

So yes, certainly discs like Biollante need compensating for as described in the post above, but don't do it automatically just because your Blu-ray is from Japan or your US disc is using a Japanese transfer! Most of these are fine. I have the Studio Ghibli Japanese Blu-rays myself and they're perfect.

[keef]

I was under the impression that calibrating video for black=0 and playing it on a display set to black=16 would crush blacks, not lighten them. A value of 16 would be in the gray range during calibration, but would be read as black by the display, along with 0-15. Regardless, while it's not unique to Japanese transfers, there are certainly A LOT of Japanese transfers released in the US that have lightened blacks (with black perhaps being around a value of 30). I'm not sure, but perhaps the initial calibration of these transfers is actually correct, and studios are mistakenly applying compensation that was necessary in the analog days but no longer is. Thus, we get US releases of Japanese transfers with lightened blacks (though this doesn't explain why it seems to happen to non-Japanese films as well). Whatever the cause, I find it necessary keep a second calibration profile on my TV set around black=30 for playing US releases of Toho transfers.

[EddieLarkin]

Yes, of course that makes more sense.

Presumably it's the case the range is being limited then, rather than widened. No one seems to know why it's even a thing, and as you can see from the list in that link there are plenty of non-Japanese discs/transfers with this problem. Likely it's just poor standards and transfers/disc encoding being performed by people who don't know what they're doing.

[keef]

Right, that is a likely explanation as well. Anyone looking for a free calibration tool for their HDTV should look here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/948496/avs-hd ... alibration You simply download the appropriate file, decompress it, and burn it to a disc (BD or DVD media both work) and you have a good HDTV calibration disc to play in a Blu-ray player. Use it to calibrate one setting for general use by following the on screen instructions (more detailed instructions can be found in the link). Then calibrate a second setting the same way except for the black level, where you don't want to see flashing bars below a value of 30 (one pattern on this disc goes to 25, another to 28, which should be close enough to estimate the proper setting). You might want to adjust the white level and color saturation as well, though I'm less sure of what the appropriate levels would be. These instructions will make more sense when you familiarize yourself with the disc.

[jellydonut25]

Awesome info humdingers. Much obliged.

[canofhumdingers]

That's very interesting info Eddie. I'm not a professional in this field, just an enthusiast, so it doesn't surprise me to find out there's more to it. I know the basic concept of different standards between the US and Japan is true for the old analogue CRT days but didn't realize it was not necessarily true for HD video.

I guess I just assumed it was still true b/c it seems all the Toho HD goji tv broadcasts appear to be faded and washed out looking as does my Toho Godzilla '84 bluray, as well as the U.S. DAM and Biollante blus... So basically every Japanese HD video I've seen has the faded blacks and washed out qualities, reinforcing the idea of the different video standards still existing.

Either way, whether it's differences between countries or differences between computer and tv calibration standards, the fixes I described above still work. It's not professional advice, but at least it makes for a more enjoyable viewing experience.

[canofhumdingers]

Sorry to double post but I posted the following in the thread about the new Godzilla blurays but thought it was pertinent and might be useful here too:

Also, for what it's worth, many people have complained about the somewhat significant video noise on the Toho HD masters. Supposedly it was either added on purpose to hide some flaws or a natural by product of the older HD telecine machine they used. Either way any Toho BD or domestic release sourced from the same masters (DAM, Biollante, and the most recent Megalon DVD) has a noticeable amount of video noise throughout the movie.

I normally vehemently shun using any sort of video noise reduction or DNR, but in this case I've had very good results turning the video noise reduction setting on my TV to low or even medium. It significantly reduces the video noise but I'm still able to clearly see film grain and other fine detail where I should be able to. For me it actually greatly enhanced my viewing experience as I wasn't constantly being distracted by all the video noise on screen.

The big caveat being that you don't want to turn the setting too high and turn everybody into wax figures (like that terrible Predator transfer from a few years ago!). Also, you will obviously have different results based on your individual tv. I'm using a Panasonic plasma and have been impressed with the results but I've seen other brands where turning it on quickly reduces fine detail into a blurry smudge-y mess.

Don't get me wrong, even on my tv it DOES reduce the fine detail, but you have to REALLY look closely to notice it. It's a balancing act between losing detail and eliminating video noise. On my tv a low or medium setting for these discs works great, but then I always turn the noise reduction back off for watching anything else!!

[EddieLarkin]

That assumptions understandable if your majority experience with Japanese transfers is Toho's Godzilla stuff yeah.

So it's likely a combination of Toho having poor standards and the US labels who licence from them not knowing how or bothering to correct their poor standards.

[Tom R VanSlambrouck]

keef the link to the AVS calibration software would you recommend using the BD one if you have access to it or the DVD? Would both provide the same results? Two of our three blu-ray players also double as video game systems so would video games get the proper calibration needed?

[keef]

Tom, I've only used the DVD version, but they both have mostly the same content (you can fit a small amount of HD content on a DVD and play it in HD on a Blu-ray player). As far as video games go, I assume consoles output in the video range rather than the PC range since they're meant to be hooked up to TVs. I've read that the PS3 allows you to choose between RGB limited (video) and RGB full (PC). However, I have read conflicting information on whether output is consistent with all games. For now I guess just try it out and see how things look.

[Tom R VanSlambrouck]

PS3 does indeed allow you to do that but I have mine set up to automatic. So I assume it selects studio standards instead of PC; I do have my PS3 hooked up via HDMI.

I'll probably just do the DVD version that way I can calibrate my PS3, Xbox 360 and Xbox One.

[John Schuermann]

If you are calibrating an HDTV, it makes more sense to use a Blu-ray disc than a DVD (especially in regard to color). HDTV uses a different color space (REC709) than standard definition (REC601). Blu-ray is high definition (REC709) while DVD is standard definition (REC601). DVD is just not capable of delivering all of the colors your HDTV is capable of displaying. Even though the DVD and Blu-ray will have the same calibration values for black and white (16 - 235), the color space values are different. If you calibrate to a DVD, you *may* not get accurate color values for Blu-ray (or HDTV).

I'm not a gamer (so I could be wrong about this), but I understand that PS3 and XBox games use the REC709 color space and standard Video levels (16-235) for black. PC games can be different, and why many HDTV displays have a PC input setting.

Technically, if you are hooked up to your display using HDMI, the output device (PC, DVD, Blu-ray or gaming console) should signal the device to choose the correct color space for accurate display. A problem can occur when using an upconverting DVD or Blu-ray player, in that if you tell the player to upconvert your 480i DVDs to 1080P, the display may think it is getting an HDTV signal and decode the color improperly. If you are using a Blu-ray player to output your DVDs, though, you should be fine since any reasonably engineered Blu-ray player should know how to properly decode and flag standard definition (REC601) color. You still want to calibrate with a Blu-ray disc, though, since you are probably calibrating an HDTV REC709 display.

I hope this makes sense

[John Schuermann]

[keef]

There is some understandable confusion here. The AVS HD 709 calibration DVD is not a DVD per se, it is AVCHD content burned onto a DVD-R. It is in 1080p and only plays in AVCHD compatible Blu-ray players, despite the fact that it is on DVD media. The introduction to the avsforum thread states "The AVS HD 709 patterns are meant only to calibrate for Rec. 709 encoded HD video."

[John Schuermann]