TALKBACK #19: Godzilla and Mothra, The Battle for Earth

Discuss the 2nd Godzilla film era here! Beam fights, revised versions of classic kaiju, the Heisei era was a mixed bag of fun and controversy!

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Postby Thomas » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:12 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:I always felt Battra shouldn't have a cocoon, nor should he do what he did in the movie. I think he should sort of just stop moving, and split down the back and have the Imago form crawl out of the larva.


That is a great idea! Like a cicada nymph molts.

Better than a cocoon would be for Battra? Yep, better than a cocoon would be for Battra.
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Postby MouthForWar » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:15 am

There are awesome things in just about every Godzilla manga adaptation that you can tell were most likely in the original script, but they didn't use due to budget.

Battra DID have a coccoon in the comic book:

http://tohokingdom.com/web_pages/grap_n ... ge7_01.htm

THere was a sequence in G'84 with sea lice raining down off of Godzilla and onto people.

A lot of stuff with the aliens in G2K.

For examples and some scans of some of these differences, head over to Toho Kingdom's comics section.

http://tohokingdom.com/comics.htm

I think a lot of these things would have made the movies better, but they were obviously ommitted from the scripts because they would have been too expensive.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:20 am

I don't think a Battra cocoon could help this movie.
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Postby metal_bryan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:24 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:I don't think a Battra cocoon could help this movie.


Pretty much what I was trying to say in my last post. :lol:
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Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:44 am

I'm not saying a battra coccoon would have saved the film...

but it wouldn't have had to stop the film in its tracks. there's no reason we would have needed to see battra spinning the cocoon...you just pan over the ocean to see a hard-shelled thing that looks kinda like a bean-pod floating, and then adult battra hatches out.

would have been MUCH better than battra doing a light-show and just changing on the fly.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:42 am

Even I so, I maintain Battra probably shouldn't use a cocoon to further differentiate him from Mothra. :D
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Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:13 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:Even I so, I maintain Battra probably shouldn't use a cocoon to further differentiate him from Mothra. :D
i disagree...i think it's a bit of a stupid deviation to have him not coccoonanize...if the idea is that Battra is the dark mothra, the mirror-image of mothra then he should be like mothra in all ways, except mean...
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Aug 09, 2012 12:20 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:Even I so, I maintain Battra probably shouldn't use a cocoon to further differentiate him from Mothra. :D
i disagree...i think it's a bit of a stupid deviation to have him not coccoonanize...if the idea is that Battra is the dark mothra, the mirror-image of mothra then he should be like mothra in all ways, except mean...


Eh, I don't see anything stupid about it. And why like Mothra in all ways except being mean? To me, that's just a waste of the character's potential. Why make him so simplistic, too? My biggest problem with Battra or SpaceGodzilla is that they were like Evil Mothra and Space Godzilla and the concept never really moved beyond that point.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:36 pm

i don't see the point of Battra if he's not a mirror image of Mothra.

if he's just a Mothra ripoff monster, I think he's even lamer than I currently do. and i think he's kinda lame.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:05 pm

....why does an evil version of something HAVE to be almost exactly like the original? o_O

MechaGodzilla is the whole "evil clone" trope, but Godzilla doesn't spin his head around and create force fields or shoot his claws off.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:44 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:....why does an evil version of something HAVE to be almost exactly like the original? o_O

MechaGodzilla is the whole "evil clone" trope, but Godzilla doesn't spin his head around and create force fields or shoot his claws off.
I honestly can't and don't care to explain it more than i have.

comparing mechagodzilla to battra is like comparing a car to a horse...shouldn't really be done.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:56 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:....why does an evil version of something HAVE to be almost exactly like the original? o_O

MechaGodzilla is the whole "evil clone" trope, but Godzilla doesn't spin his head around and create force fields or shoot his claws off.
I honestly can't and don't care to explain it more than i have.

comparing mechagodzilla to battra is like comparing a car to a horse...shouldn't really be done.


No it's not. MechaGodzilla fulfills the classic Evil Double/Knock Off trope. Battra is doing the same thing. The basic requirement is that they be somewhat mirrored. But to imply that some attributes MUST be mirrored is wrong. The only one I would argue must be done is that it must look vaguely like whatever it's the evil version of.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:00 am

mechagodzilla is a robot. battra is a living entity.

comparing them and saying "Mechagodzilla isn't just a mirror image of Godzilla, why should Battra be a mirror image of Mothra?" is like saying "A car isn't a mirror image of a horse...where are the stereos and auxiliary port on a horse?" the car fills the classic need for transportation, just like a horse does...

it's more apt to compare Battra to more CLASSIC negative-image villains, like Venom, or Bizarro Superman, or...

<sigh> battra should have a coccoon, and it's lazy for him not to. that's my opinion and i'm stickin to it. :P
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:06 am

jellydonut25 wrote:mechagodzilla is a robot. battra is a living entity


Sorry to be rude, but no "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!".

They're different monsters, but they inhabit the same storytelling niche.

Like, say, Gandalf in Lord of the Rings and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Lord of the Rings.

But a Jedi isn't a Istari.

Also, you say compare it to Venom, Bizarro, and those are the same damned trope. It's a pretty broad concept so it can be attached to any of those characters and more, I don't know why this is so hard to grasp.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:10 am

you can't apply the same rules to a living creature as to a rob....

you know what?

i don't want to have this conversation anymore.
I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:17 am

jellydonut25 wrote:I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.


No, remember you said it was stupid for him NOT to have a cocoon. I was just defending that it's entirely within literary convention that a evil double doesn't have to completely mirror everything about the hero.

Also, applying the same literary expectations for Robot Doubles and the broader scope of Evil Doubles is a pretty basic action. All I was arguing for is that because they fall under the same umbrella is pretty much proof that there's no exact science to it (You saying he MUST have a cocoon and that it was STUPID otherwise).
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:21 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.


No, remember you said it was stupid for him NOT to have a cocoon.
exactly.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:25 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.


No, remember you said it was stupid for him NOT to have a cocoon.
exactly.


Oh, good. We agree you were wrong, then. :D
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:26 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.


No, remember you said it was stupid for him NOT to have a cocoon.
exactly.


Oh, good. We agree you were wrong, then. :D


"Battra should have a coccoon"
"It's stupid for Battra not to have a coccoon"
it's the same statement.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:46 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I'm an idiot for thinking that battra should have a coccoon apparently.


No, remember you said it was stupid for him NOT to have a cocoon.
exactly.


Oh, good. We agree you were wrong, then. :D


"Battra should have a coccoon"
"It's stupid for Battra not to have a coccoon"
it's the same statement.


I realize...I was kidding with that last bit. Although I'm still discouraged by your incredibly narrow view of how storytelling tropes can be used. :/
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:48 am

close-minded, perhaps.

but it's my opinion of battra and why he doesn't work as well as he could. I still do, and will, think it's lazy for him not to have a coccoon stage of some sort.

but laziness is just par for the course for the Heisei films.
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:05 pm

Personally, I don't see much difference between "Evil Doppelganger" and "Evil Mechanical Doppelganger." One is a slight variation on the other but they fulfill the same purpose.
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Postby metal_bryan » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:14 pm

Yeah, I don't think Battra HAS to have a cocoon either... but I do think it would have improved the character. As would have the splitting down the back idea.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:43 pm

*highfives the both of you*
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:46 pm

*crotch punches all of you while crying*
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