TALKBACK #17: Godzilla vs. Biollante

[Legion]

[Dr Kain]

[Goji 84]

[jellydonut25]

[Goji 84]

[briizilla]

[Dr Kain]

[MekaGojira3k]

[Goji 84]

[briizilla]

[The Real McCoy]

[Dr Kain]

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

Well, sir, you stated that it was horrible execution. That's how I responded. HOW MUCH MORE REALISTICALLY SHOULD THIS BE? Are agents working for governments too unrealistic for a world with kaiju?

No, no - that was not what I was trying to get across. I am talking about the way those scenes were acted, written, and directed. They seemed like Omori trying to shoehorn silly 60s / 70s style James Bond type antics into what was purporting to be an at least somewhat serious Godzilla film. The posing of the Saradian agent, the silly dialogue and acting, I think you get my point. In fact, you kind of said it yourself:

"I mostly see it in the Saradian agent action sequences as an attempt to homage or what will become the attempt to outright ripoff western films in later years."

Again, I am only talking about execution of the ideas, not the ideas themselves.

To me it doesn't smack of that in GvsB. It seems like a natural progression since it was introduced in the first film. Still, I don't know how the Super-X can't work. It was a secret military device created, from what I recall, to deal with nuclear disasters or somesuch. I still think psychics and high technology easier to swallow than Godzilla himself so it does work in the established level of realism.

OK, again, here we are simply talking about what worked for you and not for me. That's cool.

I am willing to concede the point that the Super X II in BIOLLANTE was consistent with the appearance of the original Super X in G '85. If you remember, I made my point about the Super X in reference to my objection to the Heisei era films trying to have it both ways by combining silly MONSTER ZERO type elements with serious GOJIRA type elements. G '85 started this trend, and I should more rightly point my finger at that film for establishing it. Would you agree that the appearance of the Super X in G '85 seemed incongruous with compared with the relatively serious tone of the rest of the film?

Because Rodan bursting into glitter makes no sense in the established world of the Heisei series, even though it was getting absurd already by that point. That's the thing I don't get about your opinion of the first two films.

Most of the Showa films don't make sense in the established world of the original Godzilla in any way, shape or form, yet will still judge those films on their individual merits. It's certainly hard to imagine SON OF GODZILLA existing in the same world created by the original film, yet it is part of the same continuity and we both admire it. I would argue that the films need to be internally consistent vs. consistent with the series as a whole. If we try to connect them all together we will drive ourselves crazy. My argument is that G '85 and BIOLLANTE have pretensions of taking place in the "real world," with their more serious approaches and tackling of more serious themes. Again, my larger point is trying to have it both ways. I can take the sillier elements in SON OF of MECHAGODZILLA II because the films make no pretense of being thoughtful, serious pieces of science fiction.

That's really it for me, along with what I see as Omori's failings as a director and writer. The other stuff is all details, which we seem to have bogged down in arguing.

Besides, Godzilla 1984 is a sequel to the original Godzilla. That is the standard of realism. A universe in which Giant radioactive beasts exist and super weapons like the Oyxgen Destroyer can be invented. By this established level of realism NOTHING in Biollante exceeds that. The telepathy/psychic ability in the Heisei films really doesn't ever reach the crazy levels of idiocy it does in Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla anywhere else in that series. Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla, I admit, is more light-hearted, but there's nothing poetic about the film.

Of course, something like that last cannot be stated categorically. Is someone who finds poetic elements in the MechaGodzilla "wrong"? Of course not. I find poetic elements in the film - the idea that music can be stored in fossils or even living things is a profoundly poetic idea. The idea that one living creature can give up its life for another and transfer its life force is a profoundly romantic AND poetic idea. Not even remotely realistic or believable, but that's like asking a piece of music to be realistic or believable. MechaGodzilla is more of a tone poem than a hard SF film.

(Boy, I sound like I am championing MechaGodzilla II as some kind of work of art, when actually I have numerous problems with it.)

Godzilla vs. Biollante functions on the rules of the universe up to that point, and that's something you CAN'T argue against. Because Godzilla and Godzilla 1984 stand as proof to that point.

I would agree with you regarding G '85, so I agree 50%. Let me ask this: are you arguing that the Super X or psychic ability is no "sillier" than the Oxygen Destroyer in the first film?

[MekaGojira3k]

I would agree with you regarding G '85, so I agree 50%. Let me ask this: are you arguing that the Super X or psychic ability is no "sillier" than the Oxygen Destroyer in the first film?

As for that, sure. I'm arguing that the psychic ability and Super X aren't any sillier...Although I don't find any of it to be particularly silly. No sillier than Godzilla himself.

I'd also like to say that it's fine that you find the Rodan thing poetic, but it really just doesn't jive with the already substantially low standard of logic set by the films previously. It's not like they went into GvsMG93 and said LETS MAKE A WHIMSICAL MOVEH! The Heisei films all have a fairly consistent world/continuity/aesthetic (for good or ill).

[jellydonut25]

[John Schuermann]

how is feeling embarrassed for the filmmakers and cringing at things in a film not an implication that those associated with the film should also be embarrassed?

I certainly didn't mean it that way. I was simply talking about my own feelings. Being involved in filmmaking myself over the years, I have run across many people who have made films that they were very proud of but that almost everyone else on the planet thought were terrible. In those cases, I was embarrassed for them, but never once did I think "wow - they should be embarrassed too." People feel how they feel. It would be very presumptuous for me to say a person "should" feel any particular way.

If I wanted to quote you, I would have quoted you...but I didn't, i was just responding to the general sentiment.

See above. I think you mis-read my sentiment - plus also argued against points I never made.

I still feel, quite strongly, that there is nothing embarrassing or cringe-worthy in Biollante.

Obviously I disagree, but this is one of those things one can't claim "right or wrong" about. I certainly don't feel that you "should" feel embarrassed or find scenes cringeworthy.

OOps, wait, I did just think of ONE thing...ONE. When Biollante "dies" and Erica's "spirit" goes up to "heaven". In fact, that's the only moment I can think of that smacks of the "fantasy" elements you claim the film shoehorns into the mix.

To me that was more corny than anything, but at least we agree on something regarding BIOLLANTE

Seriously, you don't find at least the disco chase music at the beginning cringeworthy?

on a separate note, to respond to a sentiment above:
I'd never throw Super X2 under the bus, either...think about it. On the one hand, you have the Super X, a super weapon that came as close as anything ever has to beating Godzilla. Why WOULDN'T they want to try that again? It always infuriates me when something nearly works and only doesn't due to some weird extenuating circumstance in a movie and then they just abandon the idea. Here in Biollante, they're saying "See? We paid attention to the last movie, we'll try this again".

I actually agree with you about this. As I mentioned in another post, its the SuperX in all its incarnations - at least as presented - I find ridiculous.
_________________

[John Schuermann]

As for that, sure. I'm arguing that the psychic ability and Super X aren't any sillier...

Hmmm. Here we have a simple disagreement, then. While I would agree that the Oxygen Destroyer (as explained in the film) doesn't really hold up to scrutiny in scientific terms, it worked extremely well as a metaphorical device and to illustrate the films themes about how mankind constantly feels the need to one up each other and come up with more terrible weapons of mass destruction. It was also used to make a point about how scientific discoveries can be perverted into weapons. So, from that perspective, the Oxygen Destroyer was subtextually important and served to hammer home the film's philosophical points. If the Super X had been handled in such a manner, I suppose I would have found it easier to swallow.

Still, I can't imagine a similar scenario as G '85 playing out in the original Godzilla. The city lays in ruins as Godzilla moves from target to target. Suddenly a large armored flying weapon shows up that is *somewhat* consistent with 1950s technology and attacks Godzilla. A line is casually dropped to explain that, oh, we already had this sitting around in case Japan was ever attacked again with nuclear weapons. It's appearance is accompanied by Akira Ifukube's most bombastic march ever, with all of the orchestra's instruments playing double forte .

I really don't believe that the original GOJIRA would be held in near the same regard as it is today if that had been the case. Same is true if we had had the Japanese equivalent of Sylvia Brown predicting Godzilla's moves.

Although I don't find any of it to be particularly silly. No sillier than Godzilla himself.

Godzilla is certainly not silly when considered in metaphorical terms. And at least the very contradiction of Godzilla's existence is dealt with in the original film, where Dr. Yamane wants to study exactly how a creature like Godzilla could exist. In those terms, how Godzilla is reacted to is exceedingly realistic.

I'd also like to say that it's fine that you find the Rodan thing poetic, but it really just doesn't jive with the already substantially low standard of logic set by the films previously. It's not like they went into GvsMG93 and said LETS MAKE A WHIMSICAL MOVEH! The Heisei films all have a fairly consistent world/continuity/aesthetic (for good or ill).

Again, a simple disagreement. I do think they went in with the idea of making a more fantastical, less serious film. And on that level I like it. Set against the original GOJIRA, MECHAGODZILLA II is ridiculous. But then. so are most of the Showa films.

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

[Legion]

[MekaGojira3k]

[lhb412]

My thoughts about all of this:

If you are asking me if all of the various subplots in Biollante are as well developed as they could be, the answer is no. If you are asking me if all the various characters are developed as well as they could be, the answer is also no. If you are ask me if there are too many characters and subplots in the film (resulting in quite a bit o muddle) the answer is yes.

But that's the thing about Biollante; while most of the post-showa films largely disappoint, this one mostly works. There are some parts of the film that don't fit the tone most of the film tries to establish, but they aren't too distracting and overall there is a consistent tone. There are too many characters being juggled and none of them quite get the development they need, but at least they're all given some distinct characteristics and have arcs.

But the most important thing about the film is that it's enjoyable and cool. Godzilla's really cool in it, and while Biollante doesn't get that much screentime she makes it count in two impressive sequences. The film keeps on moving so when you hit something sour you're quickly past it and on to the next thing.

[MekaGojira3k]

I agree with the above. Although I think I may view the film in a more positive light overall.