The Imperial Ambitions of Godzilla

[kiryugoji04]

I really want to respond to you, MekaGojira3k, but I think we're already dangerously close to a full-blown political debate that we're not allowed to have and my response would almost certainly push it over that line. Oh well.

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

See I've never heard anyone call it a humanist masterpiece. I've just seen people (usually old people) screeching Nationalism and flapping their wings in a panic.

Also, I've found I'm at a point where I think it's great that those two guys have contributed to the fandom, but they're also just...people.

[lhb412]

I also think that some folks just object to the movie on a stylistic level, and and as such are inclined to dig deep into their dislike of it. This is common in criticism, really; just saying that the work is remote to you for stylistic reasons seems a rather paltry thing, so often there's the need to find some moral objection to the work of art in order to justify, psychologically, one's dislike of it. That's not to say that one can't find nationalistic themes in Shin Godzilla, but it can explain the need to puff them up to gargantuan proportions and read them into every single scene, character, but of dialogue, camera placement, etc.

In the quest of some folks to read that much into this film I've noticed quite a few errors in their descriptions of certain parts of the movie, as they overlook or misinterpret the often straightforward things that are happening on the screen in order to fit into their unified theory. In this regard there has been some cogent analysis of Shin Godzilla and its place in the Japanese culture of today that's been very informative, and there is also been a whole lot of Pepe Silvia-esque craziness.

[jellydonut25]

[lhb412]

^ I like that shot! It has the slightly inexplicable nature that often defines tokusatsu style.

The worst shot is Godzilla moving right before 'cooling down' after his all-out attack. To my eyes the CGI looks far more unfinished than anything else in the film.

[MekaGojira3k]

You can ask what he MIGHT have thought, but to treat it as gospel or to even place so much on the opinion of Honda seems ridiculous. The franchise as Honda understood it and where it was even by the end of his life were very different. It's like that era of the fandom in which THE 54 FILM IS THE ZENITH, ALL ELSE PALES AND STAND ILLEGITIMATE IN ITS WAKE mentality overtook everything. Things change, and this franchise has done so a great many times.

Oh my god, is this where we are? "THE TRAINS DIDN'T LOOK REALISTIC." (also choosing a gif of something that just looks interesting, great choice *thumbs up* and all that)

As for the trains, I like it too, I like how strange it is, as though the cars are bumping into one another and locking into serpentine shapes. It looks like they're swarming him. It's almost like Tokusatsu doesn't value realism over visuals. Though I'm sure there's no hint of that in the franchise's history.

As for a masterpiece, that's always gonna be swathed in opinion and that's why much of the "THOSE JAPANESE AND THEIR NATIONALISM!" irks me. Just dislike the movie, this business of then dragging it into the quagmire of "THIS MEANS THIS" or "THIS MEANS THAT" (Again, I acknowledge it's there to be read) and doing so with such a definitive tone seems silly (not to mention seems to want to place a moral judgement on film thereby ruining the fun of film interpretation as a hobby)

I must've had a fit of madness, because I thought in the era of Shin Godzilla/The Godzilla Anime/an the Monsterverse stuff that by so many tones and ideas being expressed we might've moved into a stretch where everybody got to appreciate a little bit of everything, but instead it feels like certain groups are just clinging feebly to a niche of scholarly influence that is as fleeting as their own lives. We must box things off, and we have to decide what is True Godzilla or No. XD. This fandom is so funny.

[lhb412]

[klen7]

シンゴジラ vs 真ゴジラ!!!

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

[klen7]

[tbeasley]

If you have the time this is an interesting video to check out (it's nowhere near as snarky as the thumbnail implies) -


The video takes a pitstop to look at the apparent nationalism of the live action Space Battleship Yamato, directed by Takashi Yamazaki. Yamazaki also directed the film Eternal Zero which Hayao Miyazaki roundly criticized for its rightwing leanings.

I bring up Miyazaki, who's as pacifistic as you can get and openly and regularly criticizes Japan for nationalism and whitewashing history, because he's also very good friends with Anno and I think, unless he doesn't want to badmouth a friend, he would say something about Shin if it really was this rightwing screed.

[lhb412]

I watched that video a couple of weeks ago! Really dig this guy's stuff. Hope he goes on to make a lot more video essays like this.

The thing about Yamazaki is that his brand a jingoism feels very similar to that in American movies.When Toho first announced that they were making a Godzilla movie August Ragone bet on Yamazaki being the director, right?

[Gwangi]

[lhb412]

^ Well, Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is critical of the Japanese economy at the time it was made... but it also presents a highly romanticized version of the Japanese in World War II.

[canofhumdingers]

That was incredibly interesting. I learned a lot that I was only marginally aware of regarding the historical-revisionist political movements in Japan. I also fully agree with his assessment of Shin Godzilla. It’s what I’ve thought of the film all along, but he explains it more eloquently and with a much deeper understanding of the issues than I could hope to express.

An interesting aside: early on he mentions he’s part of the younger generation of Godzilla fans (which he distinguishes from he “old guard”) and has been active in the fandom for about 10 years. It made me realize that I’ve been part of the online Godzilla fandom for almost exactly 20 years, which puts me in and odd limbo of sorts. I’m too young to be part of the old guard who grew up seeing these films in their original runs in the ‘60’s and ‘70’s, but I’m too old to really identify with the younger generation that populates the fandom these days. It oddly mirrors how I feel about the general classifications of generations in the US. I’m too young to be Gen-X, yet I’m really a bit too old to fit in to the common description and stereotypes of the millennials. Apparently I’m not alone, as there are many articles out there that clearly explain exactly what I mean.

And it led me to realize that I believe many of the people on this board (no matter how small the community has become) fall into the same group, which is quite likely why it continues to be my absolute favorite place to discuss kaiju, and probably even my favorite single website in all the internet.

[Baltan II]

That actually makes a bit of sense, and explains the community that's left around here still being willing to cling onto this forum rather than let it fade from existence. Facebook is still a horribly inadequate replacement for the discussions that occur here but I can't fit in with the likes of Toho Kingdom either. I'm definitely teetering on the edge of that xennial description, born in 85, but absolutely relate to nearly everything covered there.

Interesting aside to this conversation!

[Gwangi]

[lhb412]

^ Neat story!

I was already committed fan at the time, but I know that Seven Samurai was the first time I saw Shimura in a non-kaiju movie. I must have been either late middle school or early high school age, and it was certainly on Turner Classic Movies. I've read a lot about how PBS was the only way a lot of people saw silent films are foreign films back in the day, but that was before my time.

[Gwangi]

Yes indeed, before there was TCM, we had to rely on our local PBS stations if one wanted to watch foreign or silent features.

Apologies if I have gotten off the topic. But never would I have thought that the death of Emperor Hirohito 30 years ago, would cause this chain reaction (and I have PBS to thank!). Not only did it re-spark my interest in Godzilla, but it introduced me to Kurosawa and sparked an interest in Japanese cinema as a whole. One year later, I am at the college library, checking out one of Donald Ritchie's books on Japanese film (though, he was skimpy on the Godzilla segment).

[tbeasley]