What makes a series better or worse than the other

[zekend01]

I don't know if there is another thread like this.

Ahem.

I set this up as a thread to give me, and everyone, the opportunity to express and compare what the pros and cons are regarding each series. Debates are cool, but it's my hope that this thread will NOT dissolve into pissing matches and flame wars. I was more interested in actual organized lists (easy to do). Just name the series and tell us all what you think are the strengths and weaknesses of both.

I'm well aware that this may turn into a Showa glorification thread pretty quickly. Just be fair in your assessments THE BEST YOU CAN. No need to site specific movies too much. Try to be as general as possible. Make the lists as long as you want. Be as subjective as you like.

Thank you. I'll start.

SHOWA PROS-
Ground breaking
Innovative
Best synergy, team-wise
Best human characters
Most vivid kaiju
Best direction early on
Best music ever

SHOWA CONS-
Unintentional campiness
Some really ugly Godzilla designs
Poorer production quality as the series progressed
Poor direction and script as the series progressed

HEISEI PROS-
Best Godzilla design
Excellent use of new elements (G-Force, G-DNA, Futurian technology, new Godzilla origin)
A move towards more visually pleasing effects (beams)
Great music

HEISEI CONS-
Inflexable suits
Wooden characters as the series moved forward
Too many bad effects/rushed production schedules
Poorly rendered "classic kaiju"

MILLENNIUM PROS-
Some of the best effects
Decent re-imagined Godzilla design
Nice characterizations and acting
Nice mix of dramatic elements

MILLENNIUM CONS-
TOO many rehashed concepts and scripts
Some of the worst Godzilla designs
Some of the worst acting ever
Rushed productions
Should have waited awhile before they started this series
Uneven mix of the serious and the slapstick

[lhb412]

I think it comes down to talent. Despite changes in technology and film styles the thing was that directors like Honda and Fukuda, musicians like Ifukube and Sato, writers like Sekizawa, special effects directors like Tsuburaya, and the Toho stable of actors during the Showa series were just better on average then what came after.

[king_ghidorah]

[zekend01]

^^^Like, how about some lists though. Or some such. If it's too much to do that, let me know.

[kiryugoji04]

<3

[Tyler E. Martin]

[Legion]

[zekend01]

[Legion]

SHOWA

Pros
- Tsuburaya
- Honda
- Ifukube
- Sekizawa
- Sato
- Fukuda (mainly in the '60s)
- Akihiko Hirata, Nick Adams, the Ito sisters, Hiroshi Zoizumi, Akira Kubo, Kumi Mizuno, Kenji Sahara, Takashi Shimua, Yoshibumi Tajima, Akira Takarada, Jun Tazaki, Yoshi Tsuchiya and the list goes on and on...
- as zekend said, groundbreaking and innovative
- the original (and best) versions of Rodan, Mothra and King Ghidora
- the 1964 Godzilla
- imagination that always made up for budget or time constraints

Cons
- stock footage (over)use in the 1970s
- the loss of Toho's stock company of actors in the same decade


HEISEI

Pros
- a very strong and iconic-looking Godzilla suit that thankful became the standard
- great Ifukube scores
- strong special effects in the earliest entries

Cons
- incarnations of King Ghidora, Mothra, Mechagodzilla and Rodan that couldn't come close to the originals
- just everything concerning Godzilla vs Space Godzilla
- incredibly unappealing actors playing incredibly unappealing characters
- increasingly lazy and uninteresting special effects work as the series went on, with some amazingly poor effects that were done better 30 years previous
- pathetic knock-offs of American movies
- unnecessary and heavy-handed moralizing


MILLENNIUM

Pros
- a much better, and very interesting version of Mechagodzilla
- somewhat stronger and more creative effects
- some really great musical scores (Otani, Oshima)
- GMK, one of the very best Godzilla movies of the past 30 years

Cons
- an over-reliance on monsters we've seen too many times before
- stiff and unappealing Godzilla costumes
- really awful new monsters (Orga, Megagiras, Monster X)
- more unappealing actors and characters
- some really poor musical scores (Hattori, Emerson)
- Godzilla:Final Wars, the worst Godzilla movie ever
- starting every movie on a clean slate, making it impossible to warm up anything
- obvious corporate interference and committee thinking
- the overall feeling that, as a whole, this series should not exist and it's very existence was a mistake. We got GMK out of it, but remove that film from the equation and the series as a whole becomes pointless

[Mac]

I don't understand this "Showa Glorification" theory. The 60's and 70's Japanese Science Fiction films are like Hammer Horror. They're niche films, not even close to being great, but the movies are perfect representations of their genre.

Though, I can understand why people might get carried away. After viewing even one Heisei film, I might be foolish enough to call Godzilla Raids Again beautifully paced.

[zekend01]

[Gamzilla]

what makes the showa era better than any other series was the last 20 mins of godzilla vs hedorah....amirite??

/thread

[kent]

[heroforhirerob]

[heroforhirerob]

[ryuuseipro]

Let's face it, the Showa Series is an indestructible classic series, bar-none.

This exhaustive list of pros and cons for each series is a combination of personal opinion and objective fact, and I'm especially harsh on the VS Series; you have been warned:

SHOWA SERIES

PROS:

-Memorable, iconic Godzilla designs
-Many diverse, classic monsters
-Memorable mecha
-Great, versatile cast
-Master staff
-Compelling and entertaining stories
-Diverse music (Ifukube, Satou, Manabe, etc.)
-Sets
-Photography
-Sense of humor, especially with monsters (especially the relevant references to sports, like volleyball and judo)
-Godzilla, of course, is the most developed character (evolved from a villain, to reluctant antihero, to anthropomorphic superhero); Other characters developed, to a point (Anguirus and Rodan, former enemies, ultimately become allies, for example)
-Later films became more experimental, especially Godzilla Vs. Hedorah
-Even the "worst" films have their merits

CONS:

-Quality declined after Eiji Tsuburaya died
-Suitmation performance quality declined after Nakajima and Satsuma left
-Fall of Japanese film industry and rise of TV and the Oil Shock (Energy Crisis)
-Liberal continuity (which is actually quite forgiveable, IMHO; even the Showa Ultra Series has had liberal continuity as well)



VS SERIES (OR HEISEI SERIES)

PROS

-Started out with very solid Godzilla designs (the 1984 and 1989/91 Godzilla, particularly)
-Some servicable redesigns (Mothra, Mechagodzilla)
-Memorable new monster designs (Biollante, Battra, Destroyah)
-Very good SPFX in some movies (G84 had the best FX in the series); Teruyoshi Nakano went out with a roar here
-Some very good mecha designs.
-Reijirou Koroku is the best non-Ifukube composer
-Akira Ifukube returns as composer
-Tomoyuki Tanaka's last series
-Had the one best scene showing why Godzilla sought radioactive energy (the power plant sequence in G84), which most films since, even the Millennium Series, failed at
-Had the first film since 1954 to kill off Godzilla, but something to imply that Godzilla would return (this formula would be repeated in two films in the next series)

CONS

-Was a slap in the face to the memories of Honda and Tsuburaya (and I mean "improved" remakes of the older films)
-Took itself way too seriously, and was VEEEEERY cynical
-Strict but convoluted continuity (and not very well handled; the reference to Biollante in GVSKG perplexed Japanese audiences who don't know who/what Biollante is); Tried to have a Yamato or Gundam-like continuity, and it failed miserably
-Tried to be "realistic," but over-the-top fantasy elements gradually creep in that contradict whatever realism the series was going for
-Tried fiercely to ape Hollywood movies (and to a point, sci-fi anime), because they were screaming at the top of their lungs at how jealous they were of Japanese films losing face to Hollywood, and the resulting references are devastatingly embarrassing
-Godzilla had less personality
-Since 1992, Godzilla looked more and more slapped-together; he looked way too fat, way too stiff, and too cone-like; in GVSMG93, he looked like he had a back problem, which Super-Mechagodzilla solved by briefly putting him out of his misery
-Some bad monster FX (especially King Ghidorah)
-For an "evil" monster, Godzilla was waaaay too sympathetic
-Classic monsters' mythos were butchered
-Space-Godzilla had potential, but was wasted
-Unmemorable cardboard cut-out characters (way too many of them; Toho tried too hard to get an all-important all-star cast); even the overused Miki Saegusa (who was inspired by Kazuya Kudou & Ryouichi Ikegami's manga Mai the Psychic Girl), who should've been used once, but ultimately became the Mary Sue of the Godzilla Series
-The monster and human footage seem too distant in many cases
-No DIVERSITY in the characters; more focus on military characters
-Kouichi Kawakita, as good an FX artist as he is, has some issues; In particular, he's more of a mecha person than a monster person (monsters were high fantasy to him; listen to what he said about Jurassic Park!), and sad to say, most of his monster FX were not too good
-Kazuki Oomori - nuff said



MILLENNIUM SERIES

PROS

-Fresh takes on the Godzilla design (most especially the Mire-Goji and GMK-Goji)
-Experimental (each film is standalone)
-Allowed us the first truly evil Godzilla in GMK, the best of the series, hands down
-Great redesigns on the classic monsters (the ones in GFW were just okay)
-Best non-Showa Mechagodzilla
-Diverse characters
-"All-star cast" characters have eased down in several movies, with the "all-star cast" in sizable supporting roles, as it should be (G2000 has only 5 main characters, for example!)
-Hollywood references kept to a vast minimum
-Improvements in special FX, and very good use of digital FX (see Cons)
-Masaaki Tezuka and Shuusuke Kaneko were the first directors to actually be fans of Godzilla and care for him
-Some humor is back (especially in GXM and the black humor in GMK)
-Strong music scores by Michiru Ooshima and Kou Ootani
-Tokyo SOS is the only Godzilla film since G84 not to use Ifukube music
-Godzilla kills GINO in GFW

CONS

-Some FX were pretty "ouch," as we saw Toho take baby steps with digital FX in G2000 (it was the fault of the VS Series; Kawakita was a quasi-Luddite who had little-to-no use for digital FX, and thusly, Toho fell behind other company genres until this series; by which the Ultra Series and Toei Superhero Series had already started to use digital FX)
-Godzilla suit in two Mechagodzilla movies uneven, and the "50-Godzilla" from GFW was a mixed bag
-New monsters (Orga, Megaguirus, and Monster X) were not very memorable or imaginative; Even someone from Tsuburaya Productions could do a better job
-As GMK showed, unfortunately, Toho loves King Ghidorah and Mothra a little too much (and "B-List" monsters like Anguirus, Rodan, Varan, and others were not allowed until the last film), and cannot have faith in other monsters, as marketing-wise, they were gravely desperate
-Toho was really anxious to retire Godzilla, and it showed all too blatantly
-GFW, as much as I liked it, was the lowest point in both this series and perhaps the entire Japanese Godzilla film line; also has the most Hollywood references in this series
-Ryuuhei Kitamura - nuff said



The less said of GINO, the better.

[the_candidate]

Showa

Pros:

-It invented many classic monsters
-Great scores by Akira Ifukube
-The "regulars" (Takarada, Mizuno, Koizumi, Hirata, etc.)
-Fun to watch, in a mindless entertainment sort of way
-Some of Tsuburaya's effects are pretty good
-Lots of variety

Cons:

-Pretty bad special effects throughout (especially post-1964)
-Silly, badly written scripts that made no logical sense (I think Sekizawa is to blame)
-Awful fight scenes that were way too comical
-Godzilla's character was utterly destroyed by 1966
-Almost all of Jun Fukuda's films were bad
-Shoddy monster costumes (Godzilla was literally falling apart in GvsG)
-Pointless use of gratuitous violence (i.e. Anguirus in GvsG)
-Shameless use of stock footage in almost every film
-Quite a few terrible musical scores (especially GvsH...*shudder*)
-Lots of annoying kids
-Too many plots focusing on aliens trying to destroy Earth
-Monster Island is a retarded concept
-No real continuity
-No character development
-Lack of realism and believability
-Too much attention devoted to (poor) human plots
-Jarring use of multiple Godzilla costumes in films (GvsMG especially)
-Talking monsters? Really?
-Godzilla flies? Really?
-Adult Mothra was underused
-Too many "island" movies

Heisei

Pros:

-Best suit effects in the series
-Godzilla looked awesome throughout (especially the animatronic shots)
-New monsters in most of the films (Biollante, Battra, MechaKG, SpaceGodzilla, Destroyah)
-Mechs!
-More serious plots
-Good matte shots
-No aliens
-Battles are visually spectacular
-Great miniature cities (especially the Tokyo set at the end of GvsKG...wow!)
-Characters are more realistic
-No annoying kids
-No comical fight scenes
-Cool origins story in GvsKG
-The return of Akira Ifukube
-Much improved kaiju (Ghidorah, Rodan, MOGERA, etc)
-Spacegodzilla and Destroyah are badass
-Continuity
-Megumi Odaka (finally Toho puts focus on a recurring human character)
-Baby Godzilla and Junior weren't jokes like Minya
-Lots of emotion (especially GvsB, GvsMG, GvsD)

Cons:

-A few too many Hollywood action movie homages
-Some uneven effects
-GvsSG isn't that good
-Miki wasn't fully developed in GvsD
-Little Godzilla
-The western actors were pretty bad
-A few too many characters in some of the films
-What's with the sparks?

Millennium

Pros:

-Some good effects here and there, especially when it comes to miniatures
-Use of CGI for rockets and missiles as opposed to fireworks
-A couple of impressive scenes here and there

Cons:

-Practically no originality
-Stiff, rubbery costumes that looked very fake
-Horrendous acting (did they just hire supermodels for this series?)
-Really bad script writing
-Worst matte shots in the series
-Godzilla looked retarded in most of the films
-No continuity whatsoever
-Fight scenes were uneven; parts were serious, parts were comedic
-Masaaki Tezuka is an awful director
-Kaneko didn't think GMK through properly
-Kitamura...seriously, wtf?
-Use of same monsters over and over (and the new ones like Megaguirus and Orga sucked)
-No real excitement
-Musical scores all sucked

I wasn't being harsh on the Showa series, btw, I was being objective about it. Yes it has a few classics but the majority of the films are terrible from a critical standpoint.

[MekaGojira3k]

[Legion]

[jellydonut25]

[Legion]

[MekaGojira3k]

[Legion]

I'll take Ichiro, Ken and...whatever the kid's name is in Megalon over the little girl in Godzilla vs Mothra any day.

If anyone ever makes an action figure of Ichiro I think I'd finally be able to stop collecting and say I've seen it all. But I'd gladly buy it.

[kiryugoji04]

Legion says don't bother debating so I won't bother debating.

Besides, it's not like there really is a debate anyway. Look:

[the_candidate]