Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

King Kong! Star Trek! The Lord of the Rings! Hellraiser! Star Wars! The Marvel Cinematic Universe! The Universal Monsters! Freddy and Jason! The Dead Trilogy! The DC Cinematic Universe! Battlestar Galactica! Hammer Films! Gorgo! The range of Western Sci-Fi, Horror, and Fantasy Movies and Television programs span the scope of the imagination; this is the forum to discuss them!

"Come get some..."

Moderator: Controllers

Re: Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

Postby Outkaster » Thu Oct 10, 2019 9:29 am

jellydonut25 wrote:What makes a Joker? While some (myself included) would probably argue that one of the things that makes the Joker great is actually his lack of a backstory, it’s no less interesting a question to contemplate. Is it nature? Is it nurture? Is it timing? Is it fate? Is it choice? Todd Phillips’ Joker is one of the few movies I’ve seen that attempts to wrestle with this, while providing the answer that it’s all of those things, that actually seems to do a mostly really good job of SHOWING that it’s all of those things and not undercutting one or another in favor of leaning more towards a certain direction. The Joker isn’t born of pure happenstance, nor is he just a homicidal lunatic that should have been locked up as a child. He's not entirely in control of himself, but he's definitely to blame for that and freely chooses to abandon the laws of morality as we understand them. He’s the perfect storm.

While it misses the mark on being a “perfect” movie, some of that is because it’s not a perfect JOKER movie…it’s not a perfect COMIC BOOK movie, and that’s something that needs to be wrestled with on kind of each person’s individual level. This isn’t THE Joker, this is A Joker. It’s not the birth of the version of the Joker we all know, it’s just a possible background for how a person like the Joker can come into existence. The extent to which that bothers you will color your opinion of most of the movie, I think. For me, that holds it back from being a perfect 5/5, but its many strengths more than make up for that shortcoming, and its other faults border on nitpicks. As a character piece about a man becoming a monster, a transformation from a person into a creature (just not with the special effects associate with a thing like The Fly or something), Joker is spectacular.

PS: I guess you can't really review or talk about Joker without addressing the "glorification of violence" supposedly found's plainly and simply bullshit. Is the movie dark? Yes. Disturbing? Absolutely? Uncomfortable? You know it. Is Arthur a grimy sleezy protagonist? Yep. Does the movie have our protagonist ultimately become a sinister monster, a complete sociopath and a villain? SURE DOES. Does it condone, or even worse, applaud that violence, that sleeze, that darkness, and that sociopathic villain? What the hell movie were people watching? While some of Arthur's early moments seem at least somewhat justified by the circumstances in which he finds himself, by the end, when he's fully formed as The Joker, there's no reasoning or rationale behind his actions. He tells horrible jokes that only he thinks are funny. He tells non-jokes about death and violence that he finds hilarious and everyone else finds sick. He murders with a casual flare that only a true monster could possess and he doesn't even see why it's a big deal. To argue that the movie is extolling any kind of virtue behind this behavior is to misunderstand it completely. I could see taking issue with making the Joker somewhat sympathetic, but I don't get any sort of applauding and inciting violence. He's the VILLAIN. This is the villain's origin. As for the Joker being sympathetic, I think he's made more pitiful...which again, might not be everyone's cup of tea when it comes to The Joker, but I think there's a difference between "You should empathize with this person and their plight," and "Look at this piece of sh**. It's a real piece of sh**, isn't it? You should feel bad that it exists."

Great post.
Joined in 2001.
User avatar
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 3:04 pm
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

Postby Dr Kain » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:08 pm

A bit late, but here is my quickie review for Joker:

phpBB [media]
User avatar
Dr Kain
Millennium Godzilla
Posts: 11614
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 4:00 pm
Location: Englewood CO but originally from Buffalo NY

Re: Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

Postby Tom R VanSlambrouck » Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:11 pm

I went and saw this last night with my friend and for some reason the movie didn't really click with me until the last half hour or so. I'm not sure what it was about the movie but it just didn't really click with me. I loved Phoenix's acting he did an amazing job as usually but man just the movie was off for me.

I'm going to give it a second view on home video to really make a final judgement.
The member formerly known as gvamp
User avatar
Tom R VanSlambrouck
Millennium Godzilla
Posts: 11293
Joined: Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:49 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

Postby sentaison » Sun Oct 13, 2019 8:58 pm

This was a well made film and Joaquin Phoenix gave an Oscar level performance. But it didn't do anything for me either. I've watched plenty of the "gritty realistic crime" films of the 70's and 80's by the likes of Scorsese and Lumet. And outside of making the main character the DC villain of the title this is essentially one of those films. You could take away the makeup and clothing and set this in late NYC instead of Gotham, and change the names of the Waynes to the likes of Rockefeller and this film would be the same as far as I'm concerned. But then it wouldn't have gotten the buzz it did.
User avatar
Posts: 688
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 11:33 am


Postby mr.negativity » Mon Oct 14, 2019 11:22 am

Deadline, August 22, 2017:
The Joker Origin Story On Deck: Todd Phillips, Scott Silver, Martin Scorsese Aboard WB/DC Film
Mike Fleming Jr wrote:EXCLUSIVE: Warner Bros and DC are in the early stages of another Batman Universe spinoff movie, this one telling the origin story of the signature villain The Joker. The studio has set The Hangover‘s Todd Phillips to co-write a script with 8 Mile scribe Scott Silver. Phillips will direct the movie, and Martin Scorsese will produce it with Phillips. This will be the first film under a new banner that has yet to be named in which WB can expand the canon of DC properties and create unique storylines with different actors playing the iconic characters.

Screen Rant:
Martin Scorsese Doesn't Think Marvel Movies Are Cinema
Martin Scorsese wrote:“I don’t see them. I tried, you know? But that’s not cinema. Honestly, the closest I can think of them, as well made as they are, with actors doing the best they can under the circumstances, is theme parks. It isn’t the cinema of human beings trying to convey emotional, psychological experiences to another human being.”

THR, 10/13/2019:
Martin Scorsese Says Cinemas Are Being "Invaded" by "Theme Park" Films
Alex Ritman wrote:The director said at the London Film Festival that cinemas need to "step up."

Martin Scorsese has doubled down on comments that sparked widespread debate earlier this month, in which he compared Marvel films to "theme parks."

Speaking at a press conference Sunday alongside Robert De Niro and Al Pacino ahead of The Irishman’s closing-night screening at the BFI London Film Festival, the director repeated the "theme park" line.

"It's not cinema, it’s something else," he argued. "We shouldn’t be invaded by it. We need cinemas to step up and show films that are narrative films."

The comments echoed statements he made Saturday during BAFTA's annual David Lean lecture, claiming that movie theaters are "all being taken over" by theme park films.

"Theaters have become amusement parks. That is all fine and good but don’t invade everything else in that sense," he said. "That is fine and good for those who enjoy that type of film and, by the way, knowing what goes into them now, I admire what they do. It’s not my kind of thing, it simply is not. It’s creating another kind of audience that thinks cinema is that."

THR, 10/9/2019:
How Martin Scorsese Paved the Way for 'Joker'
Tatiana Siegel wrote:'The Irishman' helmer initially was involved as a producer on the DC villain blockbuster and may even have eyed it to direct.
User avatar
Meltdown Godzilla
Posts: 8420
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:27 am
Location: The Negative Zone

Re: Joaquin Phoenix is The Joker

Postby Dai » Fri Oct 18, 2019 5:43 pm

Spoiler Below:
One of the most interesting aspects was the way the film portrayed Gotham as being close to the edge, so that it only takes the actions of one person to push them over. In that way, this isn't The Joker as criminal mastermind in the way we're used to seeing him, and instead he's patient zero for an illness that spreads like falling dominos the moment he begins to topple. Rather than the One Bad Day philosophy of The Killing Joke, this film shows the slow burn of relentless despair and humiliation grinding people down, and how that can come from both the personal and societal level.
User avatar
Heisei Godzilla
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: UK

Re: Jared Leto vs The Joker

Postby mr.negativity » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:57 pm

THR, OCTOBER 19, 2019:
"You've Got to Stop This": Jared Leto Fumed Over New 'Joker' Movie
Kim Masters wrote:The actor, who played the character in 'Suicide Squad,' felt "alienated and upset" when Warner Bros. greenlit Todd Phillips' version with Joaquin Phoenix instead.

Just how unhappy was Jared Leto over Joker? As Todd Phillips’ dark take on the villain looks likely to gross more than $700 million worldwide, sources tell The Hollywood Reporter that Leto’s frustration that Warner Bros. was moving ahead with the Phillips project was so great early on that he tried to throttle the rival Joker in its cradle.

According to sources familiar with Leto’s behavior, when the Oscar-winning actor learned of the Phillips project, he not only complained bitterly to his agents at CAA, who also represent Phillips, but asked his music manager, Irving Azoff, to call the leader of Warners' parent company (it’s unclear whether it was Time Warner’s Jeff Bewkes or AT&T’s Randall Stephenson, depending on the timing). The idea was to get Warners to kill the Phillips film.

A source in Leto’s camp denies that the actor made this request, and Azoff declined to comment. Azoff and Leto have since parted ways.

THR previously reported that the 47-year-old star, who played the grinning crime lord in 2016's Suicide Squad, thought Warners had strung him along with promises of his own Joker stand-alone film, only to greenlight the Phillips version with Joaquin Phoenix instead. Ironically, Warners thought the Phillips project would be a small movie and, nervous about its dark tone, greenlit the pic reluctantly, with a small budget that some at the studio hoped would discourage Phillips from making it.

Warners declined to comment.

Leto had put a lot of effort into his Suicide Squad version of the DC villain, with rotting teeth, bloodshot eyes and slicked-back neon green hair. He spent months getting into character and terrifying his castmates with “gifts” such as a live rat to Harley Quinn actress Margot Robbie, bullets to Deadshot actor Will Smith and a dead pig to the entire cast during rehearsal.

It turns out that the studio wasn’t thrilled with these efforts, says a source with knowledge of the situation. And it seems the director wasn’t that pleased with the resulting performance: In the final cut of David Ayer’s ensemble antihero movie, Leto’s Joker got only about 10 minutes of screen time. While promoting the project, Leto — who had been billed as a lead character — spoke to media about how much footage of his Joker had been cut.

“In his defense, it was never really his movie, but his attempt to 'invent' a place for himself in it backfired,” says a source involved in the situation.

Leto's representative says the actor is still happily working with Warner Bros. and notes that he's currently shooting John Lee Hancock’s Little Things, starring alongside Rami Malek and Denzel Washington, for the studio.

Meanwhile, Leto’s unhappiness over the Phillips project seems to have helped end an already strained relationship between Leto and CAA. Sources say the actor felt his agents should have told him about the Phillips project earlier and fought harder for his version of Joker. Sources say Leto told his agents that they should stop the rival project, arguing that he wasn’t being treated properly as an Oscar winner (for Dallas Buyers Club). But a person with first-hand knowledge of the situation contends that by then, Leto had burned through four different teams of agents at CAA and there was little love for the actor there.

Leto left CAA for rival WME over the summer. A source in Leto’s camp says the rocker-actor had been looking to make a switch and denies that the competing Joker movies factored into his decision.

At this point, sources say Leto’s days as the Joker likely are over. He will not reprise the role for Warners' upcoming DC movies Birds of Prey (a spinoff centered on Robbie's Harley Quinn) or in James Gunn's The Suicide Squad, due out in 2021. Says one person involved in the situation: "How do you play the Joker you established following [Phoenix]? It kind of ends his Joker run.”
User avatar
Meltdown Godzilla
Posts: 8420
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:27 am
Location: The Negative Zone


Return to Sci-Fi, Horror, and Fantasy Films and Television

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests