Dragon Ball Series(es) Talkback Discussion and Stuff

[jellydonut25]

So, we have a thread announcing Super, and people speculating on what it could be, what they want out of it, etc. And we have a thread for Resurrection F, and in BOTH of those discussions, we're bleeding a LOT into discussing the various series, mangas, other movies, etc.

Why not do that in a thread designed for it?!?!?!

Like forum member MekaGojira3k, I've been doing a re-watch of Dragon Ball, Z, GT, and the movies. I'm currently up to the Cell Games Saga and here are my most recent thoughts thus far:

Dragon Ball - I'd NEVER seen more than a couple scattered episodes of this until now (well, a couple months ago at this point) because I thought it was too quaint as a kid/teen. I ENJOY the quaint aspects of it now, and I like that in general, it's not really the FATE OF THE WHOLE UNIVERSE HANGS IN THE BALANCE AT ALL TIMES story.
Emperor Pilaf Saga - a solid introduction to the characters, though young Chi-Chi's outfit is quit over-the-top. It was cool to see some of the background though on the characters who wind up just being used for comic relief or pushed to the background in DBZ, and it's fun.
Tournament Saga - I personally LOVE these tournament sagas. There's always a solid narrative running through and they move at a solid pace. Master Roshi rocks.
Red Ribbon Army Saga - We're back to the hunt for the dragon balls, but with a more formidable foe. I like this one
General Blue Saga - Not a huge fan of this one. I know it's a bit arbitrary to split this into a saga, but Blue doesn't really do a whole lot and the pirate cave thing is just...it doesn't work for me.
Commander Red Saga - Great stuff.
Fortunteller Baba Saga - Meh. I KINDA like the "fight the universal monsters" stuff that's going on but overall, it doesn't do a whole lot for me.
Tien Shinhan Saga - Another tournament saga and another good one.
King Piccolo Saga - Pretty good, but a lot of the eventual inconsistencies with the Piccolo character are a tad bothersome (like, why/how does he spit out eggs with dinosaurs in them? And no Namek ever does that again?)
Piccolo Jr Saga - Aside from it seeming a tad odd to me that Piccolo wants Goku dead and so joins a tournament where he can't kill him to force him to fight (whaaaa?) I like this quite a bit. Also though, it drags on a bit too much at the end, with the quest to put out the fire at Ox King's castle.

As for the Dragon Ball movies, it's kinda hard to recommend any of them, though the first one (Curse of the Blood Rubies, I think) is actually a great way to compress the first season into a single movie. The others are basically just ways of compressing even MORE of the Dragon Ball story into the same running length and Sleeping Princess in Devil's Castle is especially mediocre, to me at least.

Dragon Ball Z - I'm mid-watch, but I would say I still generally like this better than Dragon Ball as a whole. Vegeta probably has a more complex, satisfying character arc than anybody in Dragon Ball, honestly.
Saiyan Saga - Aside from it taking Goku six months or whatever it is to make it down Snake Way, this is great stuff. I feel like there are more what-ifs from this saga than any other. What if Radditz and/or Napa had survived and became super saiyans later on? That's a big question I've kinda always had.
Namek Saga - You know a 'saga' is pretty bad when it gets compressed down to like 5 episodes later on. This one has a lot of filler, especially the false Namek stuff. Beh.
Ginyu Saga - Not a FAVORITE of mine, but a solid group of fights.
Frieza Saga - I remembered liking this a LOT more the first time I saw it. It's still good, but it seems like Frieza and Goku hardly even FIGHT before suddenly they're both pretty beaten and Goku declares himself stronger and the victor. Lots of "DBZ moves like a snail" problems in this saga, and that's even with it having a few GREAT moments.
Garlic Jr Saga - Filler. Not bad filler, but filler.
Trunks Saga - Another "hard to call it a saga" and just a random decision to split it up, but this is the start (essentially) of my favorite arc in DBZ so, it's one I enjoy.
Androids Saga - I really had fun with this. 19 and 20 are cool designs and just such fun overall.
Imperfect Cell Saga - Another good one, though it's probably the low-point of the Cell story arc. It's got a bit of padding, the androids just sorta shuffle around aimlessly and aside from Kamiccolo, nothing super impactful happens.
Perfect Cell Saga - Great stuff. I love Cell questing for perfection and I love Trunks peeling back the layers of Vegeta for us a little and starting to clue us in that his motives are more noble and less arrogant than they appear

When it comes time for me to 'rank' the sagas, I'll probably combine a lot of them due to the stories bleeding together. It's hard to separate all the Red Ribbon Army or Frieza or Cell stuff mentally, even if it's done in various lists you can find all over the internet in places.

As for the movies, I think they're generally way better than the Dragon Ball movies. Granted, they're largely inconsequential, but they're at least original stories and fun.
Of the ones I've seen thus far I'd rank them as follows from worst to best:
Lord Slug (kinda just a re-telling of Piccolo)
Super Android 13 (oh, you mean Cell? Except less interesting? Okay then, I guess)
Return of Cooler (aside from the first appearance of Vegeta in a movie, it did very little for me)
Tree of Might (Turles is cool, but it's a bit dull and the end is just too convenient)
Dead Zone (I like Kame getting involved in something)
World's Strongest (a unique story, a unique villain, this is a good one through and through, honestly)
Cooler's Revenge (I like it. I like it a lot. The end? I think it's just cool[er] ZING!)


So, I doubt everyone will go as in-depth as me, but let's feel free to discuss Dragon Ball in general here!

[MekaGojira3k]

Regarding King Piccolo and his offspring, the lady and I sort of decided that it could be due to the nature of King Piccolo. He's the concentrated evil side of Kami, so maybe he just manipulates the natural reproductive process of the Namekians to make children with specific attributes.

That's my fanboy explanation for it anyhow.

I'm not finished with everything, but overall I feel like Dragon Ball moved at a much better pace and I almost prefer it to Z. I mean, the King Piccolo saga is really the first Dragon Ball saga that feels like Z, and when we watched that I got really hyped. The filler and dragging out of stuff to keep up with the manga really drags Z down. I think I may give Kai a watch either later this year or the next.

[Gman2887]

I really hate all the sub "sagas" Funimation pulled up. I just simplify it:

The Saiyan arc
The Freeza arc
The Android/Cell arc
The Buu arc

Fin.

[MekaGojira3k]

Just re-watched Super Android 13 for the first time since 2003. Hrmm. It's alright, but I think 13 was more fun when he was just being a redneck. This is also the last film I've seen. As a kid I had to save up lunch money to buy the tapes and so...I missed out on some movies (Cooler stuff). The other thing is that I was in the 8th grade when DBZ ended. I sort of moved on to the plethora of other anime filling up cartoon network. It's fine, though, it's a really interesting part of re-watching the series. The movies are a strange thing, and because I'm a nerd I try to think about how they fit in continuity...
Although Dead Zone barely makes it in (Krillin meets Gohan too early...but the Garlic Jr. Saga directly references it) and I think Cooler's Revenge can fit pretty easily.

So far, I'd rank the movies as such: (No one cares, but I like doing this so YEAHHHHH)
Dead Zone
Cooler's Revenge
The World's Strongest
Lord Slug
Super Android 13
Return of Cooler
Tree of Might

I think Tree of Might is at the bottom mostly due to that SEEMINGLY huge chunk of the film dealing with the forest fire and nonsense.

I also watched Bardock, Father of Goku FINALLY and was disappointed. I used to love History of Trunks, so I'm looking forward to see if that lives up to my childhood memory of these things.

[jellydonut25]

I thought Bardock was a pretty decent story, actually. Showing that a "low-class" Saiyan can be stronger than the "elites" if he's always being tested and fighting.

It does suffer from some prequel-itis though.

History of Trunks is decent too. I watched it BEFORE the Android stuff though, and I know some of it is shown in Trunks flashbacks throughout the Cell saga, so that may or may not affect one's enjoyment.

The movies are mostly a nightmare to think about in terms of actual continuity. So many people are supposed to be dead when they happen, it's mind-boggling if you really try to fit it all into your brain. I've always thought of them as just else-worlds or what-if stuff, and even having a continuity unto themselves, sorta like an alternate universe DBZ, where things skew slightly differently.

[Gman2887]

[MekaGojira3k]

Watched the Broly movie for the first time. I had a Broly figure as a kid, but I only really knew the gist of him being the Legendary Super Saiyan. It was alright, but I felt like the "TWIST" was a bit telegraphed. Still, I enjoyed it quite a bit. It was also nice to have one of these run for more than an hour.

[jellydonut25]

Yeah I recently saw Broly too, and I definitely can understand why it's often a favorite for most people, even though I think the Broly character himself is just kinda dull. I mean, he's strong, sure, but that's about it. There's nothing really great about him. But the movie itself is solid and actually gives things a few moments to BREATHE since it's got a decent running length.

[MekaGojira3k]

[Dr Kain]

Technically Trunks and the Artificial Humans saga are all one saga.

Here is how the series is broken up by the Japanese:

Emperor Pilaf
Tournament
Red Ribbon Army
Baba Tournament
Second Tournament
Piccolo Daimaou
Third Tournament
Vegeta
Freeza
Garlic
Artificial Humans
Cell
Heaven's Tournament
World Tournament
Majin Boo

While I do think Z has more memorable villains, I don't think Vegeta is any more or less complex than Tenshinhan and Piccolo Jr.

BTW, the Bardock movie is not the official canon.

As for the movies, I'd probably rank them as:

Fusion Reborn
World's Strongest
Cooler's Revenge
Super Android 13
Wrath of the Dragon
Broly 1
Bojack
Return of Cooler
Dead Zone
Broly 2
Lord Slug
Tree of Might
Bio Broly

Oh and Broly himself sucks ass. He has no personality, no character development, and serves no purpose other than to drag out the running time.

[MekaGojira3k]

[Dr Kain]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

I'm with MekaGojira here. Saiyan saga, namek saga, ginyu saga, frieza saga, trunks saga, android saga, imperfect cell saga, perfect cell saga, cell games saga, great saiyaman saga, world tournament saga, babidi saga, majin buu saga, fusion saga, kid buu saga.

Maybe that's not "technically correct" but the divisions actually make some sense and have some logic to them.

And honestly, unless you adamantly refer to Godzilla as Gojira and such, being a Japanese version purist and calling everything else "wrong" just seems a bit pompous. There's an American version for American audiences. I don't have the time or energy to be so beholden to what's "right". I know what I know, and I know what I like. And I like the Americanization in this case.

Faulconer, fly me away!

[Dr Kain]

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

Let's meet in the middle and call them Android Humans! *thumbs up*

Anyway, on to things that matter - LIKE ME. I watched Bojack Unbound yesterday. I loved it, honestly. While Bojack is kind of underwhelming I loved the weird tournament set up. I wish this movie had the time they invested in Broly. It's a much more fun concept and it generally fits in continuity more snugly than any of these films I've seen.

[MekaGojira3k]

Finished the Great Saiyaman stuff. The Other World tournament seems like a waste. I love Tournament stories, but it seemed as though it spent all of its effort on Pikkon and didn't make any of the other battles all that interesting. I mean, it's filler, but I still would have liked to have seen more from it. Great Saiyaman straddles a line of being vaguely fun and going on for too long. I liked the 1st design more than the sunglasses/turban thing he gets later. At the same time, it's fun to see Gohan training with Videl. It feels like it gets more natural development than Goku/ChiChi's relationship got.

[Dr Kain]

[MekaGojira3k]

I don't mind it so much, I guess. Probably because it allows some focus on Gohan. It's why I don't mind the Garlic Jr. saga. Goku tends to overshadow everything.
Just finished the World Tournament stuff. Which is kind of fun, sort of mini-Dragon Ball reunion. The Majin Buu stuff is hazy in my memory, but I'm looking forward to it all.
I honestly didn't even remember how Goten and Trunks behaved. It's interesting, because they felt like non-characters in my memory.

[Hybrid Gojira]

I actually marathoned Dragonaball Kai recently, at least up to the point where Cell absorbs 17. I dunno, the show just didn't keep me as entertained as I thought it would. Maybe my nostalgia was a little too strong... I also realized some of my favorite parts of the fighting were indeed filler (since I never read the manga). For instance, I love when Krillin and Piccolo split into 3 and take on Nappa in a 6 vs 1 exchange. Overall, the filler being cut is a good thing (less side questing on Fake Namek, Frieza's fight is trimmed down, etc.) but I miss some of the stuff they added. The dub is fine - I switched between the subbed/dubbed versions on occasion just to see what it was like.

Maybe I will pick it up and finish the series at some point - I was sort of waiting around for the Kai Buu saga to wrap up in Japan before finishing the series. Kid Buu is my favorite villain and his battle with Vegeta and Goku is the best fight of the series, though the Saiyan/Frieza arc probably offers the best story.

[jellydonut25]

Cell Games Saga - Awesome sauce.
Great Saiyaman Saga - It sorta plays jump rope with the line between delightfully cheesy and cringe-worthy cheesy and skews a little too much toward cringe-worthy for my tastes. It's not bad, but it's nothing super important.
World Tournament Saga - The Juniors tournament goes on a tad too long since we know that Trunks and Goten have no chance whatsoever of losing, but they actually have a really good fight and there's a lot of stuff here I like. Goku meeting Goten for the first time is a solid emotional DBZ moment.
Babidi Saga - I mean, yeah, it's definitely stupid that you'd essentially make your ship into a video game with stages, but I just really like this whole thing. I like the way everyone reacts to the Saiyans, I like Dabura, I like the acknowledgment that Gohan has gone soft after not training this whole time, I love Vegeta vs. Goku. Good stuff.
Majin Buu Saga - Some stuff is GREAT here. Vegeta's Final Atonement, Goku going Super Saiyan 3 for the first time, and some stuff is a little annoying. Fat Buu is a tricky character, and I think they go a bit too far on the side of annoying instead of letting him be just sort of a simpleton. It's hard to explain, but I think it COULD have worked better and kinda didn't...but also could have been way worse.
Fusion Saga - Old Kai is kinda just an excuse to do Master Roshi type stuff again, and the end of this goes a bit too long and ridiculous, with the fighting candy and the innards of Buu, but there are also some good fights and great character moments here, especially as what kinda ends up being Piccolo's swansong.
Kid Buu Saga - Kid Buu is kinda what Fat Buu should be closer to. He's certainly more mean-spirited and serious, but he's got the better combination of disarmingly goofy but just as a way to kick your ass more. Lots to enjoy here, but for me, the best "end note" of the series is actually right after Buu is defeated and Goku and Vegeta share a moment together. The stuff with Uub and all that just feels like a tacked-on ending, like they wanted to be able to say "And the story may continue some day" instead of really giving everyone a proper farewell. For me, it's far more emotional when Vegeta and Goku give each other the thumbs-up and recognize that they really are FRIENDS now than Goku's half-assed sorta-bye to everyone when he takes Uub under his wing.


The Cell Arc is my favorite stuff.
Then the Saiyan Arc.
Then the Buu Arc.
Then the Frieza Arc.

The Frieza Arc feels the most padded out of all of them, probably because Frieza just hangs over the WHOLE thing instead of the others where they start in one place and end in another. The "inevitable showdown" between Frieza and Goku is just sitting over the whole proceedings, but we keep getting sidetracked, and then the fight itself isn't as entertaining as other fights in the series.


As for the movies, I've watched the rest of those too...

Bojack was okay, the two Broly sequels were pretty bad (though I liked the third one a little bit out of pure absurdity), Fusion Reborn is a lot of fun and Wrath of the Dragon is one I feel could have been REALLY good with a little MORE run-time to develop everything. I'd probably rank the movies something like:

Fusion Reborn
Broly 1
Cooler's Revenge
Wrath of the Dragon
World's Strongest
Bojack Unbound
Super Android 13
Dead Zone
^The ones I enjoy.
Tree of Might
Broly 3
^Ones that are bad, but I'd still sit through every now and then.
Return of Cooler
Lord Slug
Broly 2


As for GT, I just started it...just for re-watchiness sake...I'm getting a better hang on what's not so good about it. Only a few episodes in thus far, but it's like they're trying to bring back a vibe similar to the original dragonball, but they're missing antagonists. It's just goofy adventure and the fun of the humor just doesn't work like it does in Dragonball. I haven't really gotten to any of the more annoying stuff yet, either, like how Goku becomes kind of a cocky dick as a fighter instead of the more heroic Superman-type, or how pretty much every character not named Goku is just thrust to the side and might as well not even exist...
^Hard to rank, because I don't like them much at all.

[Psycho Soldier]

I have to confess I've seen very little of DBZ after the Cell Saga. Been waiting on the Kai cut of the Buu Saga, but that seems a way off for North America. Maybe I'll have to take the plunge, watch the original cut.

[Shin_Edda_Robo!!!!!]

[Psycho Soldier]