Ryûhei Kitamura Wants To Return To Kaiju??

Discuss the millennium era of Godzilla films! From Godzilla 2000 Millennium to Godzilla Final Wars, these films comprised a wide variety of styles and topics!

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Postby MouthForWar » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:00 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:
King_Ghidorah wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.


Hahaha...very true, Final Wars is a mess and he certainly did miss out on a lot of those other kaiju films you guys mentioned...tho none of them really became even moderate successes so it's pretty easy to forgive as most Japanese film goers probably don't remember them either...unless that is you're a fanboy


Super 8 Ultra Brothers was the highest-grossing Ultraman film of all time.


But (and I honestly don't know, so I'm not just playing devil's advocate) does "highest grossing Ultraman film" = "successful blockbuster" or just merely "it did good for an Ultraman movie"- kinda how GMK was the highest grossing Millennium Godzilla film, but not really a major blockbuster. I don't know much about how Ultraman films do in Japan because I don't follow them closely... I lose track of Ultraman rather easily since there's just SO much of it.

Besides, a lot of people consider Ultraman more in the "hero" genre than strictly "kaiju"- I know its dumb, but even I tend to kinda block Ultraman stuff out when I think of recent kaiju films... not on purpose though, as I generally don't like the specific genre tagging that goes on with music and films. Its more of a subconscious thing, where I have to stop and be like "Oh yeah, there WAS an Ultraman movie recently"- So barring Ultraman, what has there been besides a Gamera and a Guilala (both of which nobody cared about) and some obscure indies?
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Postby Mac » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:13 pm

I'm pretty sure GMK was a blockbuster in terms of the Japanese box office, but I could be wrong. Super 8 Ultra Brothers was successful, but it grossed less than any of the Millennium Godzilla films.
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Postby MouthForWar » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:42 pm

Mac wrote:I'm pretty sure GMK was a blockbuster in terms of the Japanese box office, but I could be wrong.


I know it did really well for Toho, but I feel like if GMK was an honest to god success, it would have done more to resurrect the series from its box office hell get people paying attention to Godzilla again. I realize GxMG did fairly well after GMK, but not enough to make me believe that GMK was a true blockbuster success.

Mac wrote:. Super 8 Ultra Brothers was successful, but it grossed less than any of the Millennium Godzilla films.

Alright, see THAT'S not good, especially given how awful GxM did.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:00 pm

Mac wrote:I'm pretty sure GMK was a blockbuster in terms of the Japanese box office, but I could be wrong. Super 8 Ultra Brothers was successful, but it grossed less than any of the Millennium Godzilla films.


Yeah then I don't really consider that a success that will permeate pulp culture and leave a lasting impression on anyone in Japan but our fandom brethren on the other side of the pacific...
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Postby Mac » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:55 pm

To be fair Godzilla is an international icon, so more is expected from the character, monetary wise, than Ultraman. Besides, I believe Super 8 Ultra Brothers had a relatively small budget. Also, while GxM did fair poorly, it still managed to break even, so it wasn't a ToMG or GFW size failure.
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Postby Kaiju Nexus » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:00 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.
i don't see how including something other than what you claim to be a fan of makes you somehow less of a fan...

it'd be like if i said I was a huge fan of puppies and then bought a kitten...
i dont like puppies any less, i just have this kitten.


Because for GFW, a more appropriate metaphor would be if you said you were a huge fan of puppies and were holding a huge "Let's celebrate the glory of puppies" convention dedicated to how wonderful and cute puppies are and ended up featuring kittens and slugs on half the convention floor...
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Postby king_ghidorah » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:05 pm

HAHAHAHAA
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:27 pm

Mac wrote:To be fair Godzilla is an international icon, so more is expected from the character, monetary wise, than Ultraman. Besides, I believe Super 8 Ultra Brothers had a relatively small budget. Also, while GxM did fair poorly, it still managed to break even, so it wasn't a ToMG or GFW size failure.


Yeah, it may not have done amazingly well in relative terms but Tsuburaya Pro. was pretty pleased.
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Postby Tyler E. Martin » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:28 pm

Kaiju Nexus wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.
i don't see how including something other than what you claim to be a fan of makes you somehow less of a fan...

it'd be like if i said I was a huge fan of puppies and then bought a kitten...
i dont like puppies any less, i just have this kitten.


Because for GFW, a more appropriate metaphor would be if you said you were a huge fan of puppies and were holding a huge "Let's celebrate the glory of puppies" convention dedicated to how wonderful and cute puppies are and ended up featuring kittens and slugs on half the convention floor...


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Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:43 pm

Kaiju Nexus wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.
i don't see how including something other than what you claim to be a fan of makes you somehow less of a fan...

it'd be like if i said I was a huge fan of puppies and then bought a kitten...
i dont like puppies any less, i just have this kitten.


Because for GFW, a more appropriate metaphor would be if you said you were a huge fan of puppies and were holding a huge "Let's celebrate the glory of puppies" convention dedicated to how wonderful and cute puppies are and ended up featuring kittens and slugs on half the convention floor...
The problem is, I think it was the fans and Toho who built up GFW to be "let's celebrate the glory of puppies" when kitamura just really wanted to make a film featuring puppies...
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Aug 13, 2010 2:35 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.
i don't see how including something other than what you claim to be a fan of makes you somehow less of a fan...

it'd be like if i said I was a huge fan of puppies and then bought a kitten...
i dont like puppies any less, i just have this kitten.


Because for GFW, a more appropriate metaphor would be if you said you were a huge fan of puppies and were holding a huge "Let's celebrate the glory of puppies" convention dedicated to how wonderful and cute puppies are and ended up featuring kittens and slugs on half the convention floor...
The problem is, I think it was the fans and Toho who built up GFW to be "let's celebrate the glory of puppies" when kitamura just really wanted to make a film featuring puppies...


Yup. And once again, GFW still payed plenty of homage to the Showa era, from having more obscure stuff like Gorath as a big plot device, the Gotengo being the main ship, or having small nods in the minor details (GvsMG theme, "Glenn! Glenn!").

And since all Godzilla movies should be "celebrating the glory of Godzilla," do I really need to bring up Toho's CONSTANT plagiarism of bigger movies again? Like I said, the post-Showa Godzilla movies are like the Roger Corman blockbuster rip offs of the 70s and 80s. They repeat whatever is popular and sometimes they churn out something good and sometimes they churn out sh*t.

As I've said, the plagiarism is nothing new for Toho and the least of the movie's problems. How about the shoddy script? The poor Minya subplot? The underdeveloped "M-Base" angle? That god-awful looping music at the very end? I find it funny that the most often complained about thing (lifting from other movies) is probably the thing GFW has THE MOST in common with the rest of the 90s-00 entries in the series. True, its annoying and grating at times, but so was he T2 stuff in GvsKG.
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Postby Kaiju Nexus » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:53 am

MouthForWar wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Kaiju Nexus wrote:He says he's a fan of "old-school techniques" and the older Godzilla films, yet he dedicated the vast majority of Godzilla's anniversary film to paying homage to X-Men, the Matrix and Star Wars.

Something doesn't jive there.
i don't see how including something other than what you claim to be a fan of makes you somehow less of a fan...

it'd be like if i said I was a huge fan of puppies and then bought a kitten...
i dont like puppies any less, i just have this kitten.


Because for GFW, a more appropriate metaphor would be if you said you were a huge fan of puppies and were holding a huge "Let's celebrate the glory of puppies" convention dedicated to how wonderful and cute puppies are and ended up featuring kittens and slugs on half the convention floor...
The problem is, I think it was the fans and Toho who built up GFW to be "let's celebrate the glory of puppies" when kitamura just really wanted to make a film featuring puppies...


Yup. And once again, GFW still payed plenty of homage to the Showa era, from having more obscure stuff like Gorath as a big plot device, the Gotengo being the main ship, or having small nods in the minor details (GvsMG theme, "Glenn! Glenn!").


I don't understand why you are continually referencing "Godzilla homages" in this movie that have nothing to do with Godzilla. Gorath and Atragon were never Godzilla movies. This was Godzilla's 50th anniversary film, not "Toho's special effects series' anniversary film".

And since all Godzilla movies should be "celebrating the glory of Godzilla," do I really need to bring up Toho's CONSTANT plagiarism of bigger movies again? Like I said, the post-Showa Godzilla movies are like the Roger Corman blockbuster rip offs of the 70s and 80s. They repeat whatever is popular and sometimes they churn out something good and sometimes they churn out sh*t.


Once again, you miss the point. "All Godzilla movies should be celebrating the glory of Godzilla"? Any Godzilla movie can be an experiment in film making and storytelling. This was not ANY Godzilla movie. This was a celebration of Godzilla. That's what an anniversary is. A celebration of something.

I don't receive gifts on my parents' anniversary. It's a celebration for THEM.
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:54 am

Kaiju Nexus wrote:I don't understand why you are continually referencing "Godzilla homages" in this movie that have nothing to do with Godzilla. Gorath and Atragon were never Godzilla movies. This was Godzilla's 50th anniversary film, not "Toho's special effects series' anniversary film".


Ok... how's this? In addition to references to other Showa era Toho flicks, GFW pays plenty of homage to other films like Monster Zero, Destroy All Monsters, Godzilla vs. Mecha Godzilla, Godzilla vs. Gigan, etc. That better? And yes, there's just as many elements from those films as there are Matrix and X-Men (if not more).


Kaiju Nexus wrote:Once again, you miss the point. "All Godzilla movies should be celebrating the glory of Godzilla"? Any Godzilla movie can be an experiment in film making and storytelling. This was not ANY Godzilla movie. This was a celebration of Godzilla. That's what an anniversary is. A celebration of something.

I don't receive gifts on my parents' anniversary. It's a celebration for THEM.


jelly said it best:

jellydonut25 wrote:The problem is, I think it was the fans and Toho who built up GFW to be "let's celebrate the glory of puppies" when kitamura just really wanted to make a film featuring puppies...


Nobody should hold a dopey gimmick like "50th Anniversary" in such a higher standard than the rest of the series. Who ever said GFW was going to be a "celebration of all things Godzilla?" Kitamura didn't. Shogo Tomiyama didn't. You are taking your own personal idea of what an "anniversary film" SHOULD be and trying to pass it off like its what Toho promised. I didn't have those expectations or that pre-conceived notion of an "anniversary film" and I was able to enjoy it as dumb, nonsensical, fairly forgettable b-movie fluff, just like 75% of the rest of the series. All it ever was for Toho was a last ditch effort to try and make money off the failing Godzilla brand. That's the only reason they made this movie and its the only reason they put so many monsters in it. It was ALL about money as it usually is for Toho... all one had to do was read between the lines a little to see that. Maybe its just my overly cynical nature, but I never had super high expectations for it.

By saying "This wasn't just ANY Godzilla movie," you're implying that this movie should have been more than "just a Godzilla movie"- and you're probably right... but the thing is, that's what you wanted from it, not what was promised. Look at the history of the series... Godzilla vs. Space Godzilla had "40th Anniversary" stuff in front of its trailers... where was all the "HEY THIS ISN'T A CELEBRATION" backlash back then? Destroyah was the "grand finale" and there were earlier earlier "event" films like King Kong vs. Godzilla, Destroy All Monsters - but none of them really went above the status of "just a Godzilla movie." These films should be judged by themselves as films, not by what Toho's corny marketing execs cook up. Why expect greatness from a series that has been consistently disappointing since 1992? And this is where I'm actually in agreeance with you when I said "all Godzilla movies should celebrate Godzilla"- what I meant was ALL THIS TIME Toho should have continued to be AMBITIOUS with the series the same way they were in the 60s... when was the last Godzilla movie with any REAL ambition and drive to make something original and excellent? Biollante and GMK, MAYBE... and with GMK, it seemed like Kaneko was the ONLY person there who gave a sh*t. I realize how big of a part expectations have in this kinda thing, but you also have to look at things realistically and put the series in perspective. In the context of Toho's (mis)treatment of Godzilla in the last 20 years, GFW's failure as a film and at the box office makes perfect sense.

There's just so much wrong with Final Wars that to single it out for not living up to its "50th Anniversary" ad campaign just seems goofy to me. Again, if one is going to complain about Final Wars, why not complain about a sh*tty script, stupid subplots, subpar pacing, etc... you know, things that actually MATTER? Those are the things that make GFW a poor film, not its dumb marketing gimmick.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:10 pm

^^For that matter, how about Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla as a 20th anniversary film?
There are almost NO homages/nods to "all things godzilla" just the godzilla of the 70s...

and on the "ambition" point - even GMK shows the lack of any REAL ambition with the shoehorned in monsters that don't quite fit with the theme of the plot JUST so Toho could try to play off of their popularity and make more money.

Toho hasn't been game for ANYTHING truly original since Godzilla vs. Biollante and quite frankly, that is the ONLY movie in the Heisei or Millenium eras that I find to be superb on almost every level and would put into my top 5 or so G flicks...

People just don't like to admit that Kitamura put a TON of homages to the Showa films in this flick because themovie itself was a mess of a piece of crap.
There's: the credit sequence, gotengo vs manda rematch, king caesar and ebirah (who would have thought we'd EVER see those two again), the fairly funny (with exception of the god-awful hat flipping off sound effect) poor dub-job between the cop and the pimp, the fact that the aliens essentially come from planet X, an alien invasion plot (when was the last time we'd had one of those in a godzilla film?), the kid that plays with all the old toys, the godzilla vs. mechagodzilla theme, the minya theme, minya growing in size rapidly (godzilla's revenge much?), godzilla being the indisputable king of the monsters, the multi-monster mash ala Destroy All Monsters, aliens that want to use us as receptacles and/or food (ala Godzilla vs. Gigan), the inclusion of a KENNY, and there's probably more i can't think of...

GFW's biggest PROBLEM is that it tries to pay homage to too many things and has no identity of its own.

and as far as I'm concerned, the non-Godzilla homages are just as valid as the Godzilla homages because Kitamura said he was a fan of the "showa era" and not JUST the "Godzilla showa era"
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Postby Mac » Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:04 pm

even GMK shows the lack of any REAL ambition with the shoehorned in monsters that don't quite fit with the theme of the plot JUST so Toho could try to play off of their popularity and make more money.


GMK is an ambitious film because its the first Godzilla movie, outside of the first, to try to be more than just another monster flick. The creatures of the flick scream studio tampering, but they don't affect the film.
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Postby Kaiju Nexus » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:05 pm

I DO have a problem with the pacing, editing, soundtrack, script, etc. Who wouldn't?!

However, I can forgive any of those factors in any other Godzilla movie because those films feel like Godzilla movies to me. Vague as an explanation as it may be, GFW doesn't feel like a Godzilla movie to me. And the worst part is, I really want it to. I want and hope this film continues to grow on me as a part of this series, but it feels so jarringly out of place that when I'm in the mood to watch a Godzilla film, it barely even comes to mind as a choice.

I know I'm not the only one that feels this way, but you are entirely correct when you say the underlying problem isn't simply the lack of "50th anniversary feel", but a whole slew of major flaws. However, I can't help but feel that if this film was made with some semblance of focus on GODZILLA, I would be able to ignore (or at least tolerate) its other issues.

And as for not being promised the type of film that you yourself say it "should have been", why should that make it any more forgivable? We all wanted a celebratory film...and frankly, we WERE promised something exceptional. They marketed the hell out of that film even before it was in production! (remember the slow reveal of kaiju concept art on the main site?) This was touted as a major event and they botched the **** out of it.

Should I have lowered my expectations considerably considering Toho's track record? Of course. But that doesn't make me feel any better about this missed opportunity...
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:17 pm

Kaiju Nexus wrote:And as for not being promised the type of film that you yourself say it "should have been", why should that make it any more forgivable? We all wanted a celebratory film...and frankly, we WERE promised something exceptional. They marketed the hell out of that film even before it was in production! (remember the slow reveal of kaiju concept art on the main site?) This was touted as a major event and they botched the **** out of it.

Should I have lowered my expectations considerably considering Toho's track record? Of course. But that doesn't make me feel any better about this missed opportunity...


Compare this to Gamera the Brave and the Ultraman Mebius film, two other movies that were made to celebrate anniversaries. Gamera the Brave's mission and marketing was to make a solid family film while taking Gamera back to his child-friendly roots. Aside from his roar being changed, it succeeds. It gives loving nods to the older films while still being its own thing and doing a good job of it.

Mebius got a whole huge media blitz but the general gist of their marketing was, "WHOA, GUYS, WE'RE GOING TO BRING BACK THE SHOWA CONTINUITY AND ULTRA BROTHERS AND IT'S GOING TO BE PRETTY AWESOME." And they succeeded. It's not the greatest film of all time but it's a solid film and it's a good anniversary film. Regardless of what MouthForWar says, it IS doable.

Final Wars was a "dream production" that promised to be a technical achievement that the series had not seen to that point (I remember those articles!). We got all the crazy plot elements we were promised (which are great on paper) but what we did not get was good direction, writing, or editing. Any one of those could have made the film thirty times better but we missed out on all of them. Alas, we were promised but we did not receive. Maybe it's true, I should have had lower expectations but they built me up anyway and I can't help but feel a little bitter about that.
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Postby Kaiju Nexus » Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:13 pm

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but I just watched GFW yesterday, more or less for the sake of trying to really determine what problems I have with it.

After a thorough viewing, I've decided that I take major issue with 3 things...

A. Direction

Kitamura's direction for this film isn't just wrong for the source material, it's generally wrong for the script as well. The dialogue may not be perfect, but it also doesn't beg for crazy camera angles and ridiculous over-acting. It's just too much. Not to mention the way over-used color filtering...

B. Lack of Monsters

This is basically a script criticism. Godzilla doesn't show up until over halfway through the movie, and we barely get even a few minutes of kaiju screen time by that point. In fact, overall, I think the monster screen time added up to something like 20 minutes or so...and that's for 11 monsters! Totally absurd...

C. Score

Horrible. Totally horrible. Keith Emerson is great in ELP. The score in full is an interesting listen by itself. But overlaying this super-synth/cliche action music over the film just drags it into a whole new level of embarrassment. In fact, I think this is my main problem. I could have almost tolerated the direction and script with a good classical score.



And the worst part is that these are pretty much all Kitamura's mistakes. He (obviously) directed it, he rewrote the script, and he handpicked Emerson (and the other score contributors). And Kitamura's only there because Toho specifically chose him for his "edginess".



I'm sorry. Just needed to get that out. I'm done. :P
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Postby mr.negativity » Thu Sep 09, 2010 3:30 pm

From the Godzilla 2012 Blog:
Ryuhei Kitamura Talks About Godzilla - Possible Return To The Giant Monster Genre

Ken Hulsey wrote:What many fans will find interesting is the film maker's statements about wanting to make another monster film. Some may read into those words that Kitamura may be in line to helm the next Japanese "Godzilla" film in 2014, or even possibly the new american "Godzilla" movie (Legendary Pictures, 2012), though he makes no references to either, just that he would like to take a crack at another monster film in the future.

What are the odds of TOHO making another Godzilla movie in 2014?
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Postby MouthForWar » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:07 pm

mr.negativity wrote:From the Godzilla 2012 Blog:
Ryuhei Kitamura Talks About Godzilla - Possible Return To The Giant Monster Genre

Ken Hulsey wrote:What many fans will find interesting is the film maker's statements about wanting to make another monster film. Some may read into those words that Kitamura may be in line to helm the next Japanese "Godzilla" film in 2014, or even possibly the new american "Godzilla" movie (Legendary Pictures, 2012), though he makes no references to either, just that he would like to take a crack at another monster film in the future.

What are the odds of TOHO making another Godzilla movie in 2014?


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Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:57 pm

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i think this should become the standard board facepalm
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Postby MrShape666 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:16 am

Ya know, GFW was possibly the most redicoulus movie in the Godzilla cannon since the 70s, but it still was a hell of a lotta fun to watch. So I guess I wouldn't mind seeing him do another kaiju film. It might be better to see him tackle an original monster, though.

Kitimura's films seem to be either really serious, like Alive, Azumi, or The Midnight Meat Train, or really goofy like Versus, Sky High and GFW.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:42 pm

i'd go along with your assessment there...one thing though is that his films are quite over the top
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