Fan Boys have to get hurt..in order for a Epic Godzilla

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Postby ryuuseipro » Wed May 28, 2008 5:41 am

mechascorpio wrote:
kidnicky wrote:Something else I thought of, am I the only one here who finds GMK's "adult-ness" a little overrated?


As a movie, yes, but I think the seriousness comes from the character of Godzilla himself, which is the first time since G54 that G has been a no holds barred, merciless, savage force. Not a hint of G The Defender, even with other monsters thrown in. The theme (the war dead) itself is a little "crunchier" than most G films. But even with these elements, it's not much more dark or adult than most other G films.


Basically, another reason GMK did so well was that Shuusuke Kaneko actually made Godzilla RELEVANT! Let's face it, the guy was just born to direct a Godzilla film (moreso than he was to do a Gamera film, IMHO), and probably knows more about Godzilla than most directors do (and I'm talking about the original 1954 Godzilla). The A-Bomb theme was just not enough, considering that there's a war going on in real life, so Kaneko cleverly tied WWII into Godzilla's origin to give the film an anti-war slant.

Objectively speaking, even though the other films in the Millennium Series were quite entertaining, there was hardly anything relevant about them. (Probably GFW, because of the whole video game/action culture.) If you look at them, they're just self-indulgent fanservices. That's a major reason the films fail in Japan.
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Postby MouthForWar » Wed May 28, 2008 11:46 am

kidnicky wrote:Something else I thought of, am I the only one here who finds GMK's "adult-ness" a little overrated? Before I saw it,I thought it would be like a horror movie,but it was a PG fantasy film I'd show to a 6 year old with no reservations. The only thing I can think of is that since it *is* darker than Megaguirus,the "serious Godzilla" crowd just latched on and ran with it.
I did like the movie,except for Ghidorah's sad costume.


GMK (as well as those "super dark" Gamera movies) are PG material and nothing more. Something like The Empire Strikes Back is much darker than Kaneko's kaiju films, and I really have no clue how they got branded with that idiotic "OMG SO DARK AND ADULT" banner. GMK especially has a Showa-like playfulness in much of the movie, especially the monster action and the human characters (I seem to be the only person alive that can detect this).
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Wed May 28, 2008 12:07 pm

I guess it's more that Kaneko's kaiju films carry a lot more gravity than a lot of the more recent films. They're populated with more "everyman" type characters than all the military types that became so popular in the nineties and the people-in-the-streets are shown closer to the damage than the obligatory evacuation scenes. On the opposite extreme is GFW, where I had no idea the X seijin attack was supposed to be totally world-devastating until I re-read some of the reviews. All you see are some ships firing their little lasers and then some rubble and it's pretty much totally de-humanized.

Makes sense to me, at least.

I think that gravity and extra human element is more important than any "darkness," when you're shooting for a kaiju film on the more serious side like GMK. (And despite the darker themes of atomic warfare that the original film carried, it'd be nothing without that sort of thing) But at the same time, MFW is right - GMK still knows how to have fun. It's a good blend that I would certainly like to see more often. As much as I adore GxMG and enjoy Tezuka's other films, the military characters are a lot harder to identify with and everyone else is more or less left out of the picture. That was one of the best elements of the Showa series - the wide variety of characters, most of them much more down-to-earth than the military and top scientist folk of the 90s and 00s.
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Postby Legion » Wed May 28, 2008 1:13 pm

MouthForWar wrote:...and I really have no clue how they got branded with that idiotic "OMG SO DARK AND ADULT" banner.


I have no idea exactly how this got started. And to be honest I've only really seen this applied to Gamera 3 and GMK. I guess you can make a case for the Gamera film (perhaps the emo and anime fans latched on to it, I dunno) but I just don't get how anyone can call GMK dark. It's "different" from G2K, GxM, GxMG and Tokyo SOS but it's certainly not dark. Like I always say it's a word that gets thrown around a lot these days by people who obviously have no idea what the term means. GMK is not even all that violent. There are 70s films aimed directly at the purely kiddie set with more gore than anything seen in GMK. If anything GMK is just a throwback to Ghidrah, the Three-Headed Monster wth just a tiny bit more substance thrown in for good measure.
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Postby ryuuseipro » Wed May 28, 2008 4:10 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:I guess it's more that Kaneko's kaiju films carry a lot more gravity than a lot of the more recent films. They're populated with more "everyman" type characters than all the military types that became so popular in the nineties and the people-in-the-streets are shown closer to the damage than the obligatory evacuation scenes. On the opposite extreme is GFW, where I had no idea the X seijin attack was supposed to be totally world-devastating until I re-read some of the reviews. All you see are some ships firing their little lasers and then some rubble and it's pretty much totally de-humanized.

Makes sense to me, at least.


Yes it does.

That's another reason GMK was so good. Most of the newer Godzilla movies focused more on military types (to be all Star Trek-like or Gundam-like), and it alienates from a more relevant audience. There were rarely any other characters from all walks of life, much like in the Showa Godzilla Series, which had characters from all walks of life (reporters, fishermen, policemen, hipsters, kids, even cartoonists!), and that was one ingredient that made Godzilla movies so relevant back then. Even G84, mixed bag that it is, had more realistic characters (albeit poorly conceived ones) than the ones in the remainder of the VS Series.
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Postby kidnicky » Wed May 28, 2008 9:44 pm

You know,as stupid as this thread is,I have to thank the guy who started it. He may be a troll,but I haven't thought about Godzilla this much in a long time.
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Postby jrichreturns » Thu May 29, 2008 5:31 am

YA know in an age of nuclear proliferation Godzilla is more relevant than ever. That and the way the Earth i endangered by the likes of greey humans Godzilla can be nature's avenger. In an upcoming film perhaps nuclear terrorism or a stolen nuclear device can be a topic or perhaps (whether you agree with it or not) Global Climate change (warming or the now growing popular belief of a neo ice age).
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Postby kidnicky » Thu May 29, 2008 7:42 am

Wasn't that going to be the point of the IMAX movie that seems to be forgotten about?
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Postby Drax » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:08 am

I've always wanted to see a Godzilla movie that has the epic tone and theme of a dark fantasy/sci-fi film, but with Godzilla as a "good guy/anti-hero" this time, and with minimal human subplots, which tend to bore the hell out of me at the best of times.

Make Godzilla the main character, rather than a plot device, like he seems to be in nearly every film. Try something different. Make a variation on his character to make him more interesting.
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Postby Legion » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:22 am

Drax wrote:Make Godzilla the main character, rather than a plot device, like he seems to be in nearly every film. Try something different. Make a variation on his character to make him more interesting.


That's the main problem with every Millennium film with the possible exception of Godzilla X Megagiras. Godzilla is nothing more than a plot device in all of these, with no character or personality in any of them. At least by using the same Godzilla in all 7 Heisei films we did get to know the character somewhat, although I'll admit he didn't have much of a huge personality.

That's another reason why I like Godzilla's Revenge and especially Godzilla vs the Smog Monster so much. Like 'em or not, Godzilla is a true character in these films with a defined personality. The Godzilla in G2K, GxMG, Tokyo SOS, Final Wars and yes even GMK is just a lumbering creature with a blank stare who does very little other than walk through maser tanks and incinerate his enemies. If that appeals to you fine, but that's not my Godzilla.
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Postby Mac » Sat Jun 21, 2008 4:49 pm

Godzilla being a plot device isn't the problem, it's the sloppy and poorly written stories that have plagued the series for the past 15 years now.
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Postby Benjamin Haines » Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:35 pm

Yeah, there are several Goji flicks that are great or entertaining in their own way in which Godzilla doesn't play much more of a role than that of a plot device.

Monster Zero
Destroy All Monsters
Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla
Terror of Mechagodzilla

Letting Godzilla play more of a character role is nice too, but it's not necessary if the films are done right and Godzilla is handled properly.

Regarding Godzilla 2000, I would hardly call Godzilla just a plot device with no character in that movie. His rivalry with the UFO/Orga is built up very well, so that when he wades his way into Tokyo for the final showdown, his sense of disdain for his foe is palpable, harking back to Godzilla vs. Hedorah. Who didn't feel a little tinge of glee and admiration for the Big G when he did his little endzone dance over Orga's lifeless corpse there at the end?
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Postby ryuuseipro » Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:46 pm

Legion wrote:The Godzilla in G2K, GxMG, Tokyo SOS, Final Wars and yes even GMK is just a lumbering creature with a blank stare who does very little other than walk through maser tanks and incinerate his enemies. If that appeals to you fine, but that's not my Godzilla.


I dunno, the Godzilla in GMK, at least IMHO, definitely had more personality than in the majority of the Millennium Series. If Godzilla were to be the ultimate villain, like he started out as, this was the best way to portray him. Destructive and ferocious, but still likable, in a Freddy Kruger sort of way (and not the unevenly sympathetic hulk from G84). He was also quite flexible in this film. He had more presence than the "plot devices" in the other new films.
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Postby Giganfan » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:14 pm

Even though GMK may not be one of my all-time favorites of the Godzilla series, I have still admired it more so than any other "Millennium" movie because, in truth, it is the superior film in nearly every aspect. The characterizations are allowed to live and breath within the story, as opposed to the one-dimensional, card-board cut-outs of Godzilla X Megaguirus, Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla and Godzilla, Tokyo SOS, who are hopelessly trapped within the confines of bad screenwriting. Also, alot of it has to do with the performances. With the exception of the veterans, I don't feel that there are any good actors in most of the "Millennium" movies. Actually, I shouldn't say that. What I mean is, it's one thing to give a competent performance. It's another thing to actually carry the human drama in a kaiju flick, because a lot of people, fans and casual viewers alike, watch these movies for the monsters anyway. And finally, I think GMK is the superior film because Shusuke Kaneko is no amatuer, like Masaaki Tezuka. He has the skill to attract a good script, and put a good movie on the screen, which is more than you could say for anyone, save Ishiro Honda, Jun Fukuda and maybe Takao Okawara, who has directed a Godzilla movie. Ultimately, my argument doesn't hold alot of weight though, because I am basically talking about the difference in skill between Kaneko and Tezuka. I have grown rather fond of Godzilla 2000 as of late, and Godzilla Final Wars...well, I've always said it would have probably made one helluva video game. However, I think I am justified in saying that GMK is the best of the "Millennium" series because, simply, it was made by the better filmmakers.

Now, as far as the "darkness" in the Godzilla series is concerned, I think that is a very generalized term to use. The way I see it, a Godzilla movie can never be truly dark, unless Godzilla himself is the personification of evil, and with the exception of GMK, Godzilla has never been just that. Even in [i[Godzilla King of the Monsters![/i], he was an enraged animal in strange surroundings. I think a better way to put it is, some fans want a Godzilla movie that you can take seriously, with interesting characters, a well thought-out story and exceptional special effects. What they don't seem to realize is that there are plenty of films in the series that have some of, if not all of those things. Some Godzilla movies hold up pretty well on their own as good science fiction. Of course, everybody has their own ideas on which films those are, but it really seems like some fans just aren't happy with what they've got. Personally, I don't care, either way. I love Godzilla '54 just as much as I do Godzilla vs. Gigan, while, at the same time, acknowledging the better movie. Godzilla 1985 has been a sentimental favorite of mine ever since I was born, but having watched it recently, for the first time in forever, I've come to realize other than Teruyoshi Nakano's special effects, the movie itself is actually pretty horrible. I think that when fans talk about the "darkness" in a Godzilla movie, they look to this film in particular, because it has a "tone" to it that none of the other movies have. The Cold War paranoia, and the sense of urgency with which the threat of Godzilla's return is treated are what compell some to say that Godzilla 1985 is one of the best in the series. That may or may not be true, depending on how you perceive the rest of the films, but the truth of the matter is, it's a pretty terrible movie. The direction is clumsy, the performances of the three main actors are underwhelming and overall, the story is just uninteresting. Sure, it looks more "mature" and "serious" than most of the Godzilla movies, but really, it is no less chock-full of cheesiness than Godzilla vs. The Cosmic Monster (incidentally, another of my favorite G-films). The silly giant sea-louse (Nakano's biggest misfire in the movie) and the fact that the Prime Minister inexplicably cries when Godzilla is finally defeated, are proof of this. Honestly, I just don't care. I love Godzilla, and I love Godzilla movies, good or bad, expertly-crafted or dreadfully unwatchable. Even Godzilla vs. Spacegodzilla, and even Godzilla Tokyo SOS. It's all fine with me.

Sorry if my post seems to go off in ten different directions. It has truly been a long time since I've been here, and in that time, my views on Godzilla fandom, the films and all, have changed a little bit, as they will often do with anybody, I suspect. The fact that I have been out of the fandom for quite some time now (meaning, I don't collect the toys anymore, and don't watch the films as much as I used to) has lot towith it as well. So if it seems like I am trying to make too many points at once, or if I failed to make any point foir that matter, I apologize. I just had alot to say, I guess.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:30 pm

I wouldn't call GMK's Godzilla the personification of evil at all. He's the personification of the Pacific War dead and I would hardly call them evil... just really pissed off.
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Postby Giganfan » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:31 pm

Agreed.
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Postby canofhumdingers » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:34 pm

I agree very much with you about G85. It's really not a very good movie, but it's always been one of my absolute favorite movies (godzilla or not). I can see why some fans call it a "dark" godzilla movie, but that's really a misnomer imo. It's not really "dark" so much as it is atmospheric, moody, & somber. like you said, it has a very distinct tone that no other G film has, but it's still not something i would call "dark".
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Postby TheMaster » Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:35 pm

jrichreturns wrote:YA know in an age of nuclear proliferation Godzilla is more relevant than ever. That and the way the Earth i endangered by the likes of greey humans Godzilla can be nature's avenger. In an upcoming film perhaps nuclear terrorism or a stolen nuclear device can be a topic or perhaps (whether you agree with it or not) Global Climate change (warming or the now growing popular belief of a neo ice age).


Sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Yes those things are topical, and yes goji has had varying subtexts, but hell they're action/monster movies not "message" movies. Any of the above elements can play a slight role, but hey Goji aint "woodsie" owl.
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Postby kidnicky » Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:04 pm

TheMaster wrote:
jrichreturns wrote:YA know in an age of nuclear proliferation Godzilla is more relevant than ever. That and the way the Earth i endangered by the likes of greey humans Godzilla can be nature's avenger. In an upcoming film perhaps nuclear terrorism or a stolen nuclear device can be a topic or perhaps (whether you agree with it or not) Global Climate change (warming or the now growing popular belief of a neo ice age).


Sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Yes those things are topical, and yes goji has had varying subtexts, but hell they're action/monster movies not "message" movies. Any of the above elements can play a slight role, but hey Goji aint "woodsie" owl.

Well,in the first one he kind of is,and in Smog Monster as well,but yeah throwing in some "topical" thing is just going to seem contrived and added on. What are you going to do,make the McGuffin a climate change study computer disc? Or will it turn out Godzilla's being mind controlled by Bin Laden? I just don't see any worthwhile way to fit any topical concern in.
The movies usually have an anti-war message,that's relevant enough on its own.
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Postby walshbeme » Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:41 am

TheMaster wrote:
jrichreturns wrote:YA know in an age of nuclear proliferation Godzilla is more relevant than ever. That and the way the Earth i endangered by the likes of greey humans Godzilla can be nature's avenger. In an upcoming film perhaps nuclear terrorism or a stolen nuclear device can be a topic or perhaps (whether you agree with it or not) Global Climate change (warming or the now growing popular belief of a neo ice age).


Sorry but I couldn't disagree more. Yes those things are topical, and yes goji has had varying subtexts, but hell they're action/monster movies not "message" movies. Any of the above elements can play a slight role, but hey Goji aint "woodsie" owl.
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Postby Hawanja » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:39 pm

There's plenty of ethical topics that Godzilla could be reinterpeted to stand for - war, pollution, the negative effects of climate change (hurricanes for instance) genetic manipulation of food/animals, science gone wrong, etc.

How about a movie where all the rich people are evacuated from the city in time, leaving the poor people to die? That would stike home for some of us. Or where at the begining he tramples a city and his radioactivity poisions the water supply, even mutates someone/thing else into another monster. There's plenty of possibility out there for new Godzilla films that could actually mean someting (in addition to being just fun monster films.)
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Postby Benjamin Haines » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:26 am

[quote="hawanja"]â€


2019 Edit: I think this post was a casualty of the board's server change from years back.
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Postby MouthForWar » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:54 am

Sounds kinda like Land of the Dead with kaiju to me... that could be interesting.

Benjamin Haines wrote:If The Host 2 ended up being something like that, I wouldn't shoot myself in the head.


From what I've read about the plot for Host 2, it sounds like it could be very cool.
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Postby Mexigojira » Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:09 am

a note for the new movie, give Godzilla more movility, enough so he can fight with teeth, tail, claws, and please, let the monsted screw reality, leave reality to humans.
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Postby Legion » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:33 am

Mexigojira wrote:a note for the new movie, give Godzilla more movility, enough so he can fight with teeth, tail, claws, and please, let the monsted screw reality, leave reality to humans.


What, you didn't see Final Wars? :lol:
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