King Seesar in Final Wars

Discuss the millennium era of Godzilla films! From Godzilla 2000 Millennium to Godzilla Final Wars, these films comprised a wide variety of styles and topics!

Moderator: Controllers

King Seesar in Final Wars

Postby dIsCoMbObuLaTor » Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:17 pm

I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?
Image
User avatar
dIsCoMbObuLaTor
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:10 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Postby redkiryuranger » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:05 pm

one of xillians be decet from asumi royal family
redkiryuranger
redkiryuranger
Baby Godzilla
 
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:46 pm
Location: somonauk ill

Postby Xenorama » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:11 pm

i wish he looked better in this movie, as he's a favorite of mine. of course, you can't apply the 1974 origin to this Shisa anyway.

David
User avatar
Xenorama
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3027
Joined: Sun Jul 20, 2003 10:10 pm
Location: L77

Postby Tyler E. Martin » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:35 pm

Man, King Seesar was ugly in "Final Wars." The original was much better (and more convincing, if you ask me).

As you acknowledged, dIs, I don't think anyone should be busting their brains over something that seems illogical in the movie, since the responsible parties obviously weren't. I keep trying to give the movie another chance, but it's always the same: an incoherent mess of WTF. Sorry, I'll get off my soapboax now.
Image
User avatar
Tyler E. Martin
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:43 pm
Location: Ministry of the Space

Postby Legacy_Of_Gamera » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:48 am

It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen? I mean, what did King Seesar do in Final Wars? Kick Angurius into a mountain knocking him unconscious? :roll:
User avatar
Legacy_Of_Gamera
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1872
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2003 11:25 pm
Location: New York City, New York

Postby MouthForWar » Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:57 am

Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.
User avatar
MouthForWar
Controller
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

Postby Sam » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 pm

dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


And considering it is Final Wars, which bears no continuity links to Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, King Caesar's origins, presumably, are different.
User avatar
Sam
Godzillasaurus
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 2:37 pm
Location: UK

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

Postby dIsCoMbObuLaTor » Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:37 pm

Sam wrote:
dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


And considering it is Final Wars, which bears no continuity links to Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, King Caesar's origins, presumably, are different.


I thought Final Wars was made with the presumption that all the pervious Godzilla movies had taken place in it's past? At least thats what I thought.... :?
Image
User avatar
dIsCoMbObuLaTor
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:10 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

Postby MouthForWar » Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:32 pm

dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:
I thought Final Wars was made with the presumption that all the pervious Godzilla movies had taken place in it's past? At least thats what I thought.... :?


Nope. Its the same as the rest of the Shinsei series (minus SOS), its a standalone (with a brief mention of 1954 in the opening.)
User avatar
MouthForWar
Controller
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Postby Legion » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:02 pm

It's Final Wars, I dont think anyone should read too much into the movie. Like Kitamura really even cared.
http://legion1979.tumblr.com/

Hello, Nice Warners! - A Thorough Analysis of Every Animaniacs Episode
Legion
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 7303
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:11 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby planetxleader » Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:55 am

Final Wars is a new continuity with connections to some of the Toho classics, much like Tokyo SOS. All of the kaiju have their original origins, or are pretty close to their original origins. Rodan and Angilas are still runamock mutants, Mothra is still the goddess of Infant Island, and King Seesar is presumably still the Azumi tribe's defender. Why he can't resist Xilian control as Mothra does is simple: that'd be another wrench thrown into the film's already crowded plot. I remember initial reports saying that Seesar was going to have a fight with Gigan. I was really looking forward to that. At least I'll be able to face them off in Unleashed!

By the way, I really dig Seesar's new design. In fact, I like it better than the original. Sure, it betrays the fact there's a human in there, but I really like the slim figure, the scales, and the neat, kept fur. Too bad we never got to see him use his reflective eyes.
"Vishnu takes on his multi-armed form, and says, "RAAAAAHHHOOO!!!'"
User avatar
planetxleader
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby ebirahsmeg1 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:58 am

Part of the problem with KS in GFW is that he never utilized his reflective eye power, which sucked royally. Same happened to Baragon when they inexplicably took away his heat ray (though Baragon still turned out pretty damn good in GMK in spite of this). Also, I thought the eyes were terrible...they should have used his red burning eyes from the showa era.

Honestly though, arguing which KS is better (GFW or GvsMG74) is rather pointless....both were pretty bad in a variety of ways. I like KS, but he never has nor ever will be a big favorite of mine...it's not like his showa version was anything to write home about (sorry KS fans)
GIANTC0ND0R!!!!!!!! :eek:

"F*ck Evangelion." - Me
User avatar
ebirahsmeg1
Burning Godzilla
 
Posts: 2367
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 1:10 am
Location: Kanto Region, JAPAN

Postby kpa » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:50 am

MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.
Keith
Image
User avatar
kpa
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3273
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:39 pm
Location: CA

Postby kpa » Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:51 am

MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.
Keith
Image
User avatar
kpa
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3273
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:39 pm
Location: CA

Postby MouthForWar » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:05 am

kpa wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.


Hmmmmmm... so in that case, since Seesar was on the A list, why does he get the same amount of screen time as the B-list? Or is it based on the suits themselves ,rather than screen time?
User avatar
MouthForWar
Controller
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Postby dIsCoMbObuLaTor » Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:02 am

I think it would probably help the next Godzilla movies that are made. If Toho puts togther and releases a type of lore for the Godzilla universe.

This Lore would layout a time-line of all the Kaiju origins and what exactly they are capable of. It would also layout a distinct history of everything that has happened up to this point. That way when new movies come out, the script-writers can have this to fall back on, then maybe mistakes like King Seesars won't be repeated and plot holes will be kept to a minimum.

There could still be "alternate Universe" movies, but I think having movies that fall back on Lore would be great. I think the Godzilla series has had enough material and writing over it's years to form some type of Lore.

Of course this may be a horrible idea and it could be my love of reading Warcraft Lore that wants this, lol XD.
Image
User avatar
dIsCoMbObuLaTor
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 211
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:10 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Postby kpa » Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:18 pm

MouthForWar wrote:Hmmmmmm... so in that case, since Seesar was on the A list, why does he get the same amount of screen time as the B-list? Or is it based on the suits themselves ,rather than screen time?


I've never had any interest in doing a minute count for each monster so I don't know. As far as I'm concerned none of the monster (A, B, or C list) had enough screentime in GFW.

dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I think it would probably help the next Godzilla movies that are made. If Toho puts togther and releases a type of lore for the Godzilla universe.

This Lore would layout a time-line of all the Kaiju origins and what exactly they are capable of. It would also layout a distinct history of everything that has happened up to this point. That way when new movies come out, the script-writers can have this to fall back on, then maybe mistakes like King Seesars won't be repeated and plot holes will be kept to a minimum.

There could still be "alternate Universe" movies, but I think having movies that fall back on Lore would be great. I think the Godzilla series has had enough material and writing over it's years to form some type of Lore.

Of course this may be a horrible idea and it could be my love of reading Warcraft Lore that wants this, lol XD.


A few things to remember:
1. Toho treats their monster characters like actors, and if you look at it the way they do things make much more sense. For example, a real actor like Harrison Ford has starred in movies that are part of a series (like the Star Wars and Indiana Jones films) and has appeared in a bunch of unconnected films where he's played lawyers, or cops, or whatever. His character's backstory and abilities change from film to film based on whatever role he was playing at the time.

A Toho kaiju like Mothra is handled the same way; she has been in films that were part of a series (the Showa films, the Rebirth trilogy) and she has starred in unrelated films like GMK and GFW. Her origins, looks, and powers are changed from film to film based on the different roles she has played.

2. The Millennium Series was intended to be "alternate takes" on the Godzilla characters, which meant the filmmakers could pick and choose what to include in their movies.

Most of the Millennium films open with an explanation of the timeline for that particular film... MEGAGUIRUS begins with a newsreel, GMK opens with Tachibana's speech, and the prime minister discusses the history of monster attacks early in GxMG. If you listen to the expanations the stories are easy to follow.

The beginning of FINAL WARS establishes that Godzilla was frozen decades ago and explains that the monster was mankind's greatest enemy (which eliminates many of his films from the GFW timeline). Since the 1974 MECHAGODZILLA movie never happened, King Seesar is not locked into the backstory of that film. The pre-title sequence of GFW explains that decades of war awakened giant monsters who attacked mankind again and again... since Seesar appeared like the other monsters and is controlled like the other monsters, his GFW backstory is most likely the same as the other monsters.

If you stick with what is established in each film and quit going "but that doesn't fit with another movie made in 1974" the movies are much easier to follow and enjoy (or not) on their own mertits.
Keith
Image
User avatar
kpa
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3273
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:39 pm
Location: CA

Postby rogerhartfell » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:57 pm

Did Ryuhei Kitamura even direct the monster scenes? It's kind of hard to tell but he doesn't seem to be present in the "behind the scenes" parts on the DVDs. I figured that he was somewhere else shooting the human scenes while Shogo Tomiyama was in charge of shooting the monster fights.
User avatar
rogerhartfell
Godzillasaurus
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Melbourne, AUS

Postby Dagarah72 » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:54 am

MouthForWar wrote:King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


No wonder KS looked like crap in the movie. Oh well, better luck next time! If there is a next time.


Ricky
User avatar
Dagarah72
Godzilla
 
Posts: 743
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 2:46 pm

Postby kpa » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:27 am

rogerhartfell wrote:Did Ryuhei Kitamura even direct the monster scenes? It's kind of hard to tell but he doesn't seem to be present in the "behind the scenes" parts on the DVDs. I figured that he was somewhere else shooting the human scenes while Shogo Tomiyama was in charge of shooting the monster fights.


Eiichi Asada directed the fx, but he was working under the guidelines set up by Ryuhei Kitamura. Asada also directed the fx for TOKYO SOS and the tone is totally different. GFW was pretty much Kitamura's show, and the style, editing were all as he wanted.

Dagarah72 wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


No wonder KS looked like crap in the movie.


Except MFW's account wasn't correct. :wink:
Keith
Image
User avatar
kpa
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3273
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:39 pm
Location: CA

Postby MouthForWar » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:49 am

Yeah, Keith set me straight on that in case you weren't paying attention.

But it IS true that Wakasa did have limited time and budget to do all his stuff.
User avatar
MouthForWar
Controller
 
Posts: 14691
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:01 am
Location: Livonia, MI

Postby rogerhartfell » Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:14 am

kpa wrote:Eiichi Asada directed the fx, but he was working under the guidelines set up by Ryuhei Kitamura. Asada also directed the fx for TOKYO SOS and the tone is totally different. GFW was pretty much Kitamura's show, and the style, editing were all as he wanted.


Of course, I wasn't suggesting that the director himself had no say it in or wasn't running the show... obviously all that stuff would have been sorted out in preproduction :). I just wasn't sure wether he was actually there or not for the shooting. But I guess that's where his interest in the project lay - doing the alien martial arts fights and bike chases with more money than he had on VERSUS.

MouthForWar wrote:But it IS true that Wakasa did have limited time and budget to do all his stuff.


I seem to remember around September-October 2004, people were asking why there were no photos of Manda leaked yet... and someone 'in the know' posted that the Manda prop was still being built. Maybe my memory is decieving me or this wasn't actually the case, but if it's true, then damn. They must have really scrambled to get the film finished on time.
User avatar
rogerhartfell
Godzillasaurus
 
Posts: 48
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 1:45 am
Location: Melbourne, AUS

Postby MrShape666 » Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:07 pm

Well, he still looked like a big floopy eared dog to me. Impossible to take seriously.
This is THE SHAPE speaking.
User avatar
MrShape666
Little Godzilla
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:48 am
Location: Hell

Postby Jim Ballard » Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:30 pm

Slightly off topic:

Wasn't Caesar one of Fujiwara's suits, or am I just imagining things? I know he did Rodan. I thought he did Caesar too, but now I can't find any sources back that up.
User avatar
Jim Ballard
Monster 01
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:49 am
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Postby Benjamin Haines » Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:23 pm

James Ballard wrote:Slightly off topic:

Wasn't Caesar one of Fujiwara's suits, or am I just imagining things? I know he did Rodan. I thought he did Caesar too, but now I can't find any sources back that up.


Yes. From the H!O interview with Shinichi Wakasa in 2004:
Shinichi Wakasa wrote:Another member of the team was Kakusei Fujiwara. Fujiwara sculpted King Caesar and Rodan... he created those characters himself.


dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


From that same interview:
Henshin!Online wrote:Is King Caesar still connected to the Okinawaan legend of the shisa?

Shinichi Wakasa wrote:Yes, it's the same character with the same background.


The fact that he suddenly has M-Base and is controlled by the Xilians is just a plot hole, of which there are many in Final Wars.
Image
User avatar
Benjamin Haines
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 5353
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

Next

Return to The Millennium Era: 1999-2005

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests