TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Discuss the millennium era of Godzilla films! From Godzilla 2000 Millennium to Godzilla Final Wars, these films comprised a wide variety of styles and topics!

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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Sep 26, 2013 1:37 am

Silver Kamen wrote:
klen7 wrote:i am just picturing the fanboy rage... "Those movies suck!! Kiryu is such a rip off of Mechagodzilla" :shock:


Oh I'm sure that the Fandom is more mature than that... :oops:

You really ARE new, aren't you? :lol:
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Silver Kamen » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:28 am

jellydonut25 wrote:You really ARE new, aren't you? :lol:


Just trying to imagine a better fandom. :lol:
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Sep 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Silver Kamen wrote:
klen7 wrote:i am just picturing the fanboy rage... "Those movies suck!! Kiryu is such a rip off of Mechagodzilla" :shock:


Oh I'm sure that the Fandom is more mature than that... :oops:



PFFTTTT. I'd say most of it is, but I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't get it. Seriously. A staggering number of people still don't understand the difference between ripping something off and homaging something.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby daikaijusaurus » Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:37 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:PFFTTTT. I'd say most of it is, but I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't get it. Seriously. A staggering number of people still don't understand the difference between ripping something off and homaging something.


Homages
Godzilla Final Wars:
Matrix, X-Men, Return of the Jedi, Showa Godzilla movies

Ripoffs
Godzilla (1998):
Jurassic Park, Aliens

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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Silver Kamen » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:42 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:PFFTTTT. I'd say most of it is, but I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't get it. Seriously. A staggering number of people still don't understand the difference between ripping something off and homaging something.


You do know I'm joking, right? :wink:
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Silver Kamen » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:42 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:PFFTTTT. I'd say most of it is, but I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't get it. Seriously. A staggering number of people still don't understand the difference between ripping something off and homaging something.


You do know I'm joking, right? :wink:
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:54 pm

Silver Kamen wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:PFFTTTT. I'd say most of it is, but I'm sure there are some people who wouldn't get it. Seriously. A staggering number of people still don't understand the difference between ripping something off and homaging something.


You do know I'm joking, right? :wink:


I thought you were being sarcastic and less so joking, but I was just bringing up the likelihood of people being confused.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Silver Kamen » Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:58 pm

[quote="MekaGojira3k] thought you were being sarcastic and less so joking, but I was just bringing up the likelihood of people being confused.[/quote]

Well, either way, you have a big point.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Jorzilla » Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:39 am

Watched this again tonight. I really liked the tone the movie started with, and the concept is very interesting an unique (to Godzilla films). I could have gone without a lot of the more cheezy fight moves, but I have to remind myself that the goal of this film is to be entertaining. Akane screaming and struggling with controls every other shot gets REALLY old.

One thing I do like about this movie, especially coming after GMK, is that Tezuka really nailed what I would say is a classic 'essence' of Godzilla. He's not exactly malevolent. He is willing to fight if he is in danger. He comes off purely as a walking disaster an humans keep aggravating or enticing him to attack. This concept is explored with a bit more depth in Tokyo SOS since Godzilla's new existence is purely based on Japan's militarization due to fears over kaiju attacks. While GMK is clearly a superior film, and Godzilla in GMK doesn't act too stiff, but with repeat viewings I getting the complaints around a purely evil Godzilla. Godzilla feels right when his character is somewhat sympathetic. This Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla really 'gets it' in this regards.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Dr Kain » Tue Feb 04, 2014 3:57 pm

In the early 2000s, Toho got scared of having non-big monsters battle Godzilla on the big screen, so they decided to go back into a comfort zone, and the 2002 release of “Godzilla Against MechaGodzilla” definitely shows this. While there is nothing truly wrong with using MechaGodzilla again, as the mechanical titan was definitely used cleverly, it just went on to show how Toho was more concerned with a profit than originality.

In fact, that is the whole problem with this movie, it is quite unoriginal. Yes, it does have original pieces in it, but taken as a whole, Toho played this one safe. The plot revolves around a female officer who accidentally causes the death of her team mates and she blames herself for it. She acts like an outcast and turns off all emotions she has in her acting ability, creating a robotic bland character that we just saw done two years prior. That is right, there seems to be no difference between Akane and “Godzilla vs. Megaguirus’” Tsujimori outside of one looking more famished than the other. Even the plot of the movie feels like they were redoing Megaguirus to make it a better movie and replaced the Dimension Tide with MechaGodzilla, or Kiryu as they call him, and removed the pointless insect monsters. On the positive side, they did a much better job of building up this movie’s universe in the beginning as instead of making it is own thing. We learn that other Toho kaiju movies are part of the time line here, and that really helps establish it to make it familiar rather than foreign. It makes Godzilla’s resurgence in 1999 feel more realistic even though the movie could have spent a good 20 minutes building up to the monster’s attack. Nevertheless, the first quarter of the movie does a great job introducing the rules of their world and what the problems are. It is also interesting that they want to use the skeletal remains of the original Godzilla as the basis for developing a brand new super robot to defeat Godzilla. There is a lot of potential brought to the table here and unfortunately, the second half of the movie fails to deliver on it.

The plot itself is not bad, it is just a seen it before scenario. The characters are good, but again, we have seen these characters done before, but better. The father/daughter relationship between Tokumitsu and Sara feels like they were trying to recapture the one done in “Godzilla 2000,” but it feels forced here. Sara hardly emits any emotion that does not feel like she is just reading her lines while her father is just another stereotypical nervous scientist type. The romantic subplot between Tokumitsu and Akane just seems to come out nowhere, as there is never anything to establish why Tokumitsu is in love with her. Like always, there is also some impetuous brat character who hates Akane but then has a change of heart when she rescues him. Feeling grateful for her saving him is one thing, but for his entire personality to change towards her in mere seconds is just over done. There should have been some type of build up with him moving on with his grudge, but the movie is too short to even care. In fact, that is this movie’s biggest problem, it is trying to tell too much in too short of a running time. The movie either should have focused on the pilots OR the scientists, not both.

Another issue with the plot is Godzilla. As previously mentioned, Godzilla is just thrown onto the screen too quickly and then gone before anyone could really get a sense of dread the monster is supposed to represent. Yes, they use the original’s attack as the backbone for the story, but that does not help establish why this new Godzilla is that big of a deal. It also feels convenient that Godzilla appears that one time and then never comes back for another three and a half years when Kiryu has been completed. There just seems to be something missing. Of course, given that this Godzilla will just stand still like a statue as he is being pummeled by missiles and things, he does not seem to be as intelligent as those portrayed in the previous movies. In fact, that is the main problem with this Godzilla, he is too artificial. The bones used in Kiryu’s body has more life than this Godzilla. The costume used for Godzilla is fine, as is a newer version of the 2000 suit but with the bone colored spines we are used to and the blue atomic breath. There are really no complaints to be had on his overall design.

Kiryu’s design is well done with the piping, wires, fossilized teeth of the original Godzilla between all of the metal work. This is actually my favorite design between the three versions of MechaGodzilla. The Showa era’s one is a little too busy while the Heisei one was too bulky with not enough details. Here, they seemed to have finally found a perfect balance between the two to create a monster that looks ferocious and efficient. The Absolute Zero Cannon was a good idea in concept, but vastly over powered, hence why it was used on twice during battle. Another good idea, but also used sparingly, was the weapons pack on Kiryu’s back. This was obviously designed off of the idea from the Garuda in the Heisei era, but it seemed like wasted potential as it was destroyed with ease and barely used. Finally, the best part about Kiryu was the idea of using the original Godzilla’s skeleton as the base for his creation. It was nice to see something done with the remains of the original rather than it just being talked about.

The effects in the movie are also a mixed bag. The sets the monsters battles on are really well done, as is the military weaponry. However, the CGI in this movie is terrible. I do not understand why Toho did not just show the footage of the original Godzilla being destroyed by the Oxygen Destroyer, as I bet it had cost more to produce that ugly CGI scene. Speaking of bad scenery though, as I mentioned above, there are times when Godzilla just stands around as he is being shot at. It looks bad and I just don’t understand what was going on. Did the suit actor fall asleep while those scenes were being filmed? I have seen videos on Youtube that have more realistic effects than that. Thankfully, the movie’s score is done incredibly well as a bad score could have made the movie unwatchable. The Godzilla theme from “Godzilla vs. Megaguirus” is back, which is a good thing as I really enjoy Oshima’s Godzilla theme.

Overall, there is so much to love about this movie, and yet, there is so much to hate. The plot is cookie cutter, but the concepts surroundings it are well done. The characters are unoriginal, and yet, their motivations are there. The effects are bad, but the monster battles themselves are fine. Past movies build upon this universe, while the dread of a new Godzilla has little impact. Godzilla stands around like a lifeless doll, Kiryu moves around like an organic monster. Everything this movie does positively has a negative counterpart to go with it. The positives gets a 10, but the negatives get a 0, cutting the score in half. As such, I have no choice but to give this movie a 5/10.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby klen7 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:19 pm

I really like the Akane character. More so now that I have a daughter. Its hard to find good female characters in geek culture that are worth looking up to and not just a trophy for the male hero.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby eabaker » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:59 pm

klen7 wrote:I really like the Akane character. More so now that I have a daughter. Its hard to find good female characters in geek culture that are worth looking up to and not just a trophy for the male hero.


I like the character in theory, but, as realized on screen, I nothing her.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby klen7 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:31 pm

I like the background world building in this movie as well. Like the political ramifications of rearmament and the engineering approach (featuring a multi-disciplined team rather than just some genius character). I like the concept of the accident scene at the beginning and i love that the trial run flops so spectacularly. Its definitely a film that has grown on me more than anything else from Heisei or Millennium eras.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby william newell » Wed Feb 05, 2014 2:41 am

klen7 wrote:I like the background world building in this movie as well. Like the political ramifications of rearmament and the engineering approach (featuring a multi-disciplined team rather than just some genius character). I like the concept of the accident scene at the beginning and i love that the trial run flops so spectacularly. Its definitely a film that has grown on me more than anything else from Heisei or Millennium eras.


That's the main problem I have with this movie...it sets up some really interesting scenario's, then does absolutely nothing interesting with them. At least to me...
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:35 am

To me, this might be the only film that presents a reasonable excuse to create Mechagodzilla instead of just any ole giant robot.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:57 pm

This film is mixed for me. Kiryu's design is fantastic and I like the slightly revamped Godzilla suit as well as the return to his classic blue beam. There are some great SPFX shots - Kiryu flying in and blasting Godzilla and Kiryu's rampage come to mind, but Godzilla is just so stiff at times it's really distracting. This was changed in SOS, but it really detracts from the movie for me.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Gman2887 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 4:25 pm

I always wondered why the Godzilla 2000 suit was used in the cut scenes for those slot machine games over the one in this and the next movie. Was it damaged or something?
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Russzilla » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:11 am

Hybrid Gojira wrote:This film is mixed for me. Kiryu's design is fantastic and I like the slightly revamped Godzilla suit as well as the return to his classic blue beam. There are some great SPFX shots - Kiryu flying in and blasting Godzilla and Kiryu's rampage come to mind, but Godzilla is just so stiff at times it's really distracting. This was changed in SOS, but it really detracts from the movie for me.

Hehe, even my wife said why is he just standing there doing nothing while MG blasts him.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Russzilla » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:12 am

Gman2887 wrote:I always wondered why the Godzilla 2000 suit was used in the cut scenes for those slot machine games over the one in this and the next movie. Was it damaged or something?

???
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Bluejira » Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:26 am

Godzilla Pachinko game from 2006. I believe it used the Final Wars suits of the costars and the G2000 suit. There were small battle scenes filmed.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Ub0k3P_Ifw
The Kiryu rampage was the highlight for me in Godzilla against Mechagodzilla. Glad they went to the bone white fins and blue breath. Still prefer G2000 more reptilian head design.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby jellydonut25 » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:38 pm

Bluejira wrote:Godzilla Pachinko game from 2006. I believe it used the Final Wars suits of the costars and the G2000 suit. There were small battle scenes filmed.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Ub0k3P_Ifw

Kudos to you sir. I did a brief search for it yesterday, but it was really late(or early depending how you look at it) and I couldn't find anything.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby Russzilla » Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:23 am

Bluejira wrote:Godzilla Pachinko game from 2006. I believe it used the Final Wars suits of the costars and the G2000 suit. There were small battle scenes filmed.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... Ub0k3P_Ifw
The Kiryu rampage was the highlight for me in Godzilla against Mechagodzilla. Glad they went to the bone white fins and blue breath. Still prefer G2000 more reptilian head design.

Oh how I wish to play a Godzilla game like that. That is sweet looking. I'm with you on the Kiryu rampage as well. One of the highlights in that movie along with Godzilla's appearance in the beginning of the movie, and the battle near the end wasn't bad either.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:57 am

A recent re-watch. I still like this movie. I don't quite love it, but I'm engaged, having fun for the most part, the characters are decent, and the stiff Godzilla shots didn't bother me as much this time. They're actually a little less prevalent than I remember, and by the time the final battle rolls around, they're pretty much gone.

There are things that could have been developed more, and they could have done a little more with the DNA computers and at least just lip-serviced us some kind of explanation about what it would take to repair them instead of just "We'll fix 'em....FIXED!" but this movie has a lot of good ideas and with all of its positives, the score kinda pushes it over the top for me into genuine enjoyment.
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby KingKaiju » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:33 am

Funny that I came onto this site right after watching GMMG, and although that's obviously not this film, my thoughts are consistent throughout both films. There are things I loved about it, such as the creature designs; I thought that both MechaGodzilla designs were awesome, I loved the Godzilla suit, Mothra looked good(keeping it similar to the original film, but obviously updating it. I liked the idea of mixing up and making reference to other kaiju movies, like "War of the Gargantuas", and bringing in this storyline of other monsters attacking Japan, with Godzilla being the baddest of them all. I like the idea of using the bones of the original Godzilla to create Kiryu(MechaGodzilla), which led to that awesome scene where he loses control and goes crazy after he hears Godzilla roar. I actually felt that in terms of special effects in the millenium series, these two movies were the best. That's not to say that there aren't a lot of crappy sfx in these films, because I can point out PLENTY of scene that have them. But it has it's moments where I can watch it and go "oh yeah, that looks good", MEchaGodzilla flying into the burning city against Godzilla for example. I also liked the fact that Toho went back to the whole "Godzilla the force of nature" thing, instead of sticking with a more fantasy/spiritual route that GMK did, but perhaps that's just because I've never been a fan as viewing Godzilla as "the world's evil punishing mankind" or something like that. Now, with that said, there are things about this film that I DON'T like. Now this may be a bit nit picky, but when it comes down to MechaGodzilla I've always been a fan of the original concept from 1974, the idea that he's a cyborg, a mechanical clone of Godzilla, who has a mind of his own and, outside of taking orders via radio or whatever, doesn't really need someone to pilot him. I've just never been a fan a person sitting inside the robot, like he was a megazord or something, just makes me think of Godzilla's battles with the numerous Super X planes. Also, as someone already stated, this movie is a good fun experience, but for the most part we've all already seen all this. I don't MIND them using MechaGodzilla at all, but for the most part I felt like this is a tweaked up Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla from 1993. Also, I never understood "Kiryu"... What was the purpose in changing the character's name to Kiryu? I never liked the sound of it. Also, MechaGodzilla running on batteries, cheap looking shots of MG landingon water, the crappy looking Mortal Kombat tackle he hit on Godzilla, all the weird moments and shots of the Godzilla statue looking as stiff as my Bandai Toy, and the endings to both movies left me feeling unsatisfied, as if there was no real conclusion. Just a good ole draw. I still really enjoyed these movies, but quite honestly, had they just made this movie about a mechanical godzilla clone created from the bones of the original Godzilla that, due to the DNA computers and communication with the current Godzilla, loses his mind and goes on a crazy rampage before duking it out with Godzilla, I would've loved it a lot more. I think with something like that you can still keep in the idea of the cyborg Godzilla running around tearing up Japan, while not having to throw in the alien and space aspect of things. I'm just not a fan of this whole, "we need a weapon to fight Godzilla, let's make a giant Godzilla robot and fight Godzilla with it via joystick".
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Re: TALKBACK #26: Godzilla Against Mechagodzilla

Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:25 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:and the stiff Godzilla shots didn't bother me as much this time. They're actually a little less prevalent than I remember, and by the time the final battle rolls around, they're pretty much gone.


Those shots really only bother me in that they're one of the weak points in the monster action (which is usually something I like about Tezuka's films), although I admit its something that bothers me less and less with each viewing. I think it was only "shocking" or whatever when I first saw the film, but...as I've said elsewhere before...I think it was to make Kiryu seem all that much more impressive a weapon and it works.
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