TALKBACK #25: GMK

Discuss the millennium era of Godzilla films! From Godzilla 2000 Millennium to Godzilla Final Wars, these films comprised a wide variety of styles and topics!

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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Gojilove » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:40 am

The only time I really noticed the wobbly head as being odd or distracting is in the shot from behind with Ghidorah unloading beams on him. Its a long shot and Godzilla's head is smack in the center of the frame, so its hard to miss.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:10 am

So this had, in recent years moved down a few notches, but I watched it the other night, with proper subtitles and it's kind of back more or less where it started. That's not entirely true, I think when I first watched this it was tops. It was the best G-film in my eyes, that changed and it shifted to top 5, before settling in the 6-10 bracket...but it's back on top. I mean, there are flaws, and for whatever reason, the mysticism here that I complained about doesn't bother me. It seems exceptionally clear, so maybe it's just been the awful subs/dub I've been watching that has colored my opinion.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby davezilla » Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:23 pm

Rewatched GMK tonight after quite a while. I don't know what it is about GMK but it was such a disappointment to me the first time I watched it and now still just doesn't do it for me. The second half of the film is a complete let down compared to the first have leading to the conclusion of the battle of Godzilla vs Baragon. I don't know what was wrong with Toho in this era. This is the same director who made the Gamera trilogy which I love and yet they insist he use characters that have been so overused crushing his original design. I can't stand the Mothra and King Ghidorah in this film. Boring battle, boring characterization. Mothra appears as a larva to overturn a boat then suddenly has already spun a cocoon to be the adult version. Ugh ugh ugh.

I will say Baragon was amazing. Am I the only one who roots for the little guy. He's an adorable update and design which conveys a perfect characterization for a kaiju. I always feel terrible when he gets killed. That's a tribute to the direction there. I really wish Varan (a woefully underused character who's design I love) and Anguirus were used.

While I can watch GMK, overall I find it boring. Even with the excellent score I just find it not working for me. I'm not sure why it appears to be on a lot of must watch lists. I prefer Tokyo SOS.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Mac » Thu May 01, 2014 10:04 pm

It would be tough to top the 1954 Japanese original, with its subtext about the evils of nuclear testing. (Though no less a 'Zilla-fan than Oscar winner Nicolas Cage has said not to discount 2001's Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah)


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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu May 01, 2014 10:37 pm

Nick Cage IS the man...but I have to disagree with him.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby GFan » Fri May 02, 2014 2:26 pm

davezilla wrote:Rewatched GMK tonight after quite a while. I don't know what it is about GMK but it was such a disappointment to me the first time I watched it and now still just doesn't do it for me. The second half of the film is a complete let down compared to the first have leading to the conclusion of the battle of Godzilla vs Baragon. I don't know what was wrong with Toho in this era. This is the same director who made the Gamera trilogy which I love and yet they insist he use characters that have been so overused crushing his original design. I can't stand the Mothra and King Ghidorah in this film. Boring battle, boring characterization. Mothra appears as a larva to overturn a boat then suddenly has already spun a cocoon to be the adult version. Ugh ugh ugh.

I will say Baragon was amazing. Am I the only one who roots for the little guy. He's an adorable update and design which conveys a perfect characterization for a kaiju. I always feel terrible when he gets killed. That's a tribute to the direction there. I really wish Varan (a woefully underused character who's design I love) and Anguirus were used.

While I can watch GMK, overall I find it boring. Even with the excellent score I just find it not working for me. I'm not sure why it appears to be on a lot of must watch lists. I prefer Tokyo SOS.


While I initially loved GMK (and it's still my favorite out of the Millenium series), it doesn't have anywhere the same punch now. A HUGE missed opportunity, thanks to Toho forcing out Anguirus and Varan... which would have been SO fresh and cool after the retread/beam-war-era and middle-of-the-road G2k/GXM films. It's kind of like how I feel about A STAR IS BORN (1976) now knowing Elvis was Bab's first choice. I still enjoy the movie, but what might have been will always be better (sorry Kris).

I also think the father REALLY should have died at the end; self-sacrifice would have been far more acceptable than "Yes, he survived being inside Godzilla, and the little dinky sub didn't get annihilated when Godzilla nuked himself!" Lame.

Oh, and a properly realised GMK suit, the intended t-rex stance, would have been nice too, but I still love the design regardless.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Gentleman » Wed May 14, 2014 6:54 pm

Funnily enough, I also rewatched GMK recently. Getting ready for the Big Day, you know.

Since its release GMK has been one of my favorites despite its many flaws. Chiefly, I love its original take on the formula - casting Godzilla in a supernatural light was a great idea. I feel that it never lived up to its potential, however, due to many of the same reasons everyone else stated. As a thought, I'd have been happy if Ghidorah had been replaced with Titanosaurus. This would have reinvigorated a classic monster, preserved the air/land/sea theme the Guardians were implied to have, plus given Godzilla someone to brawl with.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Thu May 15, 2014 10:40 am

I really need to rewatch this.

GMK is probably the best made millennium film and I do enjoy it, but I've always felt it fell short of being able to stack up against Kaneko's Gamera films. There are some very interesting ideas and overall the SPFX work and matte shots are incredible. Godzilla's fight with Baragon is the highlight of the movie, but that creates an issue since the last half of the film doesn't match that same level of enjoyment. King Ghidorah is...terrible. The design and neutering of his character is just awful. Mothra is better realized, and one of the better moments on the film happens when Mothra is eventually defeated.

But KG is just weak.

Not all of this is on Kaenko. His original idea to include Varan and Anguirus was supplanted so that KG and Mothra could be used. To that end, he wanted to have those monsters play second fiddle to Godzilla in screen presence and this is certainly the case with all 3 guardian kaiju.

But that doesn't mean it's perfect.

Overall, I like this movie but wish Toho would have allowed Kaneko more freedom to do what he wanted.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Giganfan » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:27 pm

So overall, the general concensus (not to mention, the truth) regarding GMK is "even though Toho/Tomiyama completely 'effed it up like they always do, Kaneko still managed to make one of the best Godzilla movies in 60 years"...works for me haha!! I mean, seriously, that "one-movie-every-winter-season tradition" Toho stuck to for, what fifteen years, never really benefited any of the movies, did it? And let's face it, after a certain point, it's as if the corporate brass just said "'Eff this, we're just gonna build condos!" In truth, Kaneko needed to spend a little more time in post-production, to allow for all of the hinderances that had to have been there for him to circumvent. Still, Kaneko and his crew are a talented bunch, and even at his most middling, Godzilla was still in good hands. I adamently feel that Godzilla, Mothra and King Ghidorah: Giant Monsters All-Out Attack is one of the five best movies in the series, along with King of the Monsters!, Godzilla vs. The Thing, Godzilla Versus The Sea Monster, and ahead of Godzilla vs. Biollante. And that is all in spite of the films short-comings. I know that King Ghidorah is puny, and un-impressive, but at least they got the silhouette right LOL!!! The color, too. Personally, I think Mothra looks like sh*t, but that doesn't bother me too much. This film really is all about Godzilla, the bad-ass, "NOW I'm become Death, The Destroyer of Worlds", million-dollar, monster movie star that he is. I mean, Godzilla whoops EVERYONE'S ass in this movie! What's not to love?!!
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Shin_Edda_Robo!!!!! » Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:17 pm

(._. ) There was a Nanking Massacre/Comfort Women denier at this multi view forum on Asia today at university, and all I could think in the back of my head was GMK.

It's a movie I stylistically don't like all that much. But one who's message I really like.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby H-Man » Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:28 pm

Giganfan wrote:I mean, seriously, that "one-movie-every-winter-season tradition" Toho stuck to for, what fifteen years, never really benefited any of the movies, did it?


Seldom mentioned is the similar 100+ minute movie tradition during that same span. (It's an odd practice. "Godzilla movies must be 100 minutes long!") GMK could have seriously benefited from either a more developed second half or a shorter one. And while we're at it, I think the movie would have been better suited with original monsters. Having Varan and Angilas as mythical creatures seems just as arbitrary as having Ghidorah and Mothra in the same roles.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby goji4ever » Sun Oct 19, 2014 3:58 pm

So why did Toho never go back to Kaneko again?
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Andrew Nguyen » Wed Oct 22, 2014 1:37 am

Shin_Edda_Robo!!!!! wrote:(._. ) There was a Nanking Massacre/Comfort Women denier at this multi view forum on Asia today at university, and all I could think in the back of my head was GMK.

It's a movie I stylistically don't like all that much. But one who's message I really like.



Considering what has been going in Japan as of late this is a key reason why this film is important. It brings the series back, IMO, to its dark origins, which after the subpar performance of G2000 and GxM, was desperately needed.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Jared » Wed Oct 22, 2014 4:40 am

This is easily the most well-made modern Godzilla film, especially in terms of direction and thematic content. Still, it feels like a first draft, especially the second half of the film which has some clunky pacing, fake tension and less-than-exciting monster action.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:26 pm

I watched this tonight.

The first half of the movie is great. The build up to Godzilla's appearance, his subsequent rampage until he fights Baragon, and everything through the plane attack scene works very well.

Everything after sucks. I mean, flat out, in your face sucks. The characters sans Taizo Tanchibana are boring. Yuri is passable. Everyone else is sleep inducing.

This film also features the worst incarnation of Ghidorah ever. Mothra...is meh. She never felt like Mothra. Godzilla is very menacing and looks great from some angles, but overall I hate his design. It's far too bulky and when he walks it looks like a fat guy running to the bathroom as of he's holding back a turd - his back is arched and it just looks stupid. For some reason, Godzilla is usually in that awkward pose and it just looks weird.

Baragon, on the other hand, is great. The fight between he and Goji is the high point of the movie.

I admit I like the score and some of the cinematography is very well done. The camera angles used demonstrate a great sense of scale for the monsters and the matte shots are mostly good.

But the final battle is lame and boring.

Meh.

It's odd, I used to have a very high opinion of GMK but now it's kinda lackluster despite having some really solid moments.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby lhb412 » Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:15 pm

Jared wrote:This is easily the most well-made modern Godzilla film, especially in terms of direction and thematic content. Still, it feels like a first draft, especially the second half of the film which has some clunky pacing, fake tension and less-than-exciting monster action.


Bingo. It's all the more disappointing because all three of Kaneko's Gamera films are so... accomplished. They're so well executed that it makes the flaws in GMK that more obvious. This film has great characters and a very interesting story, it's just that the script and plotting needs to be spruced up considerably ... Oh, and more time to do the effects.

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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 10:28 am

Hybrid Gojira wrote:I watched this tonight.

The first half of the movie is great. The build up to Godzilla's appearance, his subsequent rampage until he fights Baragon, and everything through the plane attack scene works very well.

Everything after sucks. I mean, flat out, in your face sucks. The characters sans Taizo Tanchibana are boring. Yuri is passable. Everyone else is sleep inducing.

This film also features the worst incarnation of Ghidorah ever. Mothra...is meh. She never felt like Mothra. Godzilla is very menacing and looks great from some angles, but overall I hate his design. It's far too bulky and when he walks it looks like a fat guy running to the bathroom as of he's holding back a turd - his back is arched and it just looks stupid. For some reason, Godzilla is usually in that awkward pose and it just looks weird.

Baragon, on the other hand, is great. The fight between he and Goji is the high point of the movie.

I admit I like the score and some of the cinematography is very well done. The camera angles used demonstrate a great sense of scale for the monsters and the matte shots are mostly good.

But the final battle is lame and boring.

Meh.

It's odd, I used to have a very high opinion of GMK but now it's kinda lackluster despite having some really solid moments.
I think "flat out in your face sucks" is WAY overly harsh, and that's from someone who has basically had a lowered opinion of the film with every subsequent watch.

I think it's an extremely pretentious movie and the story is ham-fisted and clunky and I don't think most of its issues in that respect are due to Toho tampering, honestly. I mean, did Toho rush in and say, "You need to introduce a whole bunch of rocks that are like USB drives uploaded with the souls of WWII veterans in order to bring the monsters to life"? Did they burst in and say, "Have there be at least two separate occasions where characters reference an object or a gesture that is so unbelievably subtle that people watching the movie multiple times will still not understand what they mean by 'it's not there anymore' and 'that gesture he made in the cell' because that's just how we do things here at Toho"? I doubt it. Those are Kaneko-driven story decisions that are flat-out goofy and go flying right in the face of this serious, spiritual plot he's trying to build.

BUT, it's still a well-directed movie. And I like our two main characters, honestly. I think Yuri's kinda great, personally. She's one of the few characters in the later Godzilla movies who can't just be summed up entirely with a quick half-sentence like "quirky inventor" or "headstrong military personnel". Yes, she's a dedicated journalist, but she's also trying to make her father proud, and she's not above getting sh*tface drunk and having a good time. She's someone we're supposed to be rooting for but has actual flaws (unlike many of the heroes of the Millennium series). And I personally enjoy the score. And I actually honestly LOVE the Ghidorah roar (though I hate pretty much everything else about Ghidorah...especially the whole bit that it's supposed to be an 8-headed dragon but just isn't old enough yet). The roar's a twist on the classic. You can pick out the classic roar sort of underneath it, but it's updated. So it isn't just a wholesale "Nope. We're doing it different" like the Heisei version, but it's also not just a complete recycling.

It's an uneven film, to be sure, and one that doesn't accomplish what it sets out to in terms of its spiritually-infused plot. But I don't really think much about it SUCKS, even if I would categorize it as the single-most pretentious Godzilla movie of all-time.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby william newell » Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:53 pm

^^Uh, for what it's worth, the rocks did not contain the souls of the WWII dead, they contained the spirits of the Guardian Monsters. The only thing containing the spirits of the WWII dead was Godzilla himself...just say'in. :)
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:00 pm

william newell wrote:^^Uh, for what it's worth, the rocks did not contain the souls of the WWII dead, they contained the spirits of the Guardian Monsters.
Still pretty damned stupid.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby DannyBeane » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:03 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:
william newell wrote:^^Uh, for what it's worth, the rocks did not contain the souls of the WWII dead, they contained the spirits of the Guardian Monsters.
Still pretty damned stupid.
Because some rocks are like CDs...
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:35 pm

DannyBeane wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
william newell wrote:^^Uh, for what it's worth, the rocks did not contain the souls of the WWII dead, they contained the spirits of the Guardian Monsters.
Still pretty damned stupid.
Because some rocks are like CDs...


BWAHAHAHAHA.

Yeah, they sort of brushed over all those details, didn't they?
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby DannyBeane » Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:08 pm

Hybrid Gojira wrote:BWAHAHAHAHA.

Yeah, they sort of brushed over all those details, didn't they?

Because compressed granite can store electricity and spirits are electrical based on information I just made up. I always felt like there was something lost in translation during that scene.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Psycho Soldier » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:48 pm

That part's even worse than the Dreamcast in Gamera 3. They would have been better off not trying to explain it beyond, "These stones hold the souls of the monsters." But there is something to that line about granite holding/conducting electricity. After some Googling, I found this article from 9 years ago. And some people (not me; I don't believe in ghosts) claim that there's a link between ghosts and electricity. Putting rocks and electrical ghosts together is still pretty silly, but I can see what GMK is trying to do. It still comes out of nowhere and isn't wholly necessary.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby lhb412 » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:52 pm

Bruticus wrote:That part's even worse than the Dreamcast in Gamera 3.


I didn't mind that. I mean, it's a weird plot point, but conspiracies and prophesies were very zeitgeisty at the time and the idea that one of the main villains was releasing commercial products that were tied into his predictions (or, rather, predictive models) was neat.
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Re: TALKBACK #25: GMK

Postby Benjamin Haines » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:09 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I mean, did Toho rush in and say....."Have there be at least two separate occasions where characters reference an object or a gesture that is so unbelievably subtle that people watching the movie multiple times will still not understand what they mean by 'it's not there anymore' and 'that gesture he made in the cell' because that's just how we do things here at Toho"?


While I also have no idea what is supposed to have disappeared in that scene with the trio looking at the camcorder in the forest, the original dialogue referring to Isiyama and the stone is simply:

    Third Wheel: "He touched your hand in the cell." -imitates with own hand-
    Yuri: "He meant this stone."
They don't actually say that Isiyama made a gesture that we're supposed to have noticed. The English dub and accompanying dubtitles (which are apparently retained on the recent bluray) take the basic core of the dialogue and manage to spit it out as something stupid, as the '90s-onward dubs usually do.
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