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King Seesar in Final Wars

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 5:17 pm
by dIsCoMbObuLaTor
I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:05 pm
by redkiryuranger
one of xillians be decet from asumi royal family

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:11 pm
by Xenorama
i wish he looked better in this movie, as he's a favorite of mine. of course, you can't apply the 1974 origin to this Shisa anyway.

David

PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:35 pm
by Tyler E. Martin
Man, King Seesar was ugly in "Final Wars." The original was much better (and more convincing, if you ask me).

As you acknowledged, dIs, I don't think anyone should be busting their brains over something that seems illogical in the movie, since the responsible parties obviously weren't. I keep trying to give the movie another chance, but it's always the same: an incoherent mess of WTF. Sorry, I'll get off my soapboax now.

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:48 am
by Legacy_Of_Gamera
It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen? I mean, what did King Seesar do in Final Wars? Kick Angurius into a mountain knocking him unconscious? :roll:

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 3:57 am
by MouthForWar
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:13 pm
by Sam
dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


And considering it is Final Wars, which bears no continuity links to Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, King Caesar's origins, presumably, are different.

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:37 pm
by dIsCoMbObuLaTor
Sam wrote:
dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


And considering it is Final Wars, which bears no continuity links to Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla, King Caesar's origins, presumably, are different.


I thought Final Wars was made with the presumption that all the pervious Godzilla movies had taken place in it's past? At least thats what I thought.... :?

Re: King Seesar in Final Wars

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 2:32 pm
by MouthForWar
dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:
I thought Final Wars was made with the presumption that all the pervious Godzilla movies had taken place in it's past? At least thats what I thought.... :?


Nope. Its the same as the rest of the Shinsei series (minus SOS), its a standalone (with a brief mention of 1954 in the opening.)

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:02 pm
by Legion
It's Final Wars, I dont think anyone should read too much into the movie. Like Kitamura really even cared.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:55 am
by planetxleader
Final Wars is a new continuity with connections to some of the Toho classics, much like Tokyo SOS. All of the kaiju have their original origins, or are pretty close to their original origins. Rodan and Angilas are still runamock mutants, Mothra is still the goddess of Infant Island, and King Seesar is presumably still the Azumi tribe's defender. Why he can't resist Xilian control as Mothra does is simple: that'd be another wrench thrown into the film's already crowded plot. I remember initial reports saying that Seesar was going to have a fight with Gigan. I was really looking forward to that. At least I'll be able to face them off in Unleashed!

By the way, I really dig Seesar's new design. In fact, I like it better than the original. Sure, it betrays the fact there's a human in there, but I really like the slim figure, the scales, and the neat, kept fur. Too bad we never got to see him use his reflective eyes.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:58 am
by ebirahsmeg1
Part of the problem with KS in GFW is that he never utilized his reflective eye power, which sucked royally. Same happened to Baragon when they inexplicably took away his heat ray (though Baragon still turned out pretty damn good in GMK in spite of this). Also, I thought the eyes were terrible...they should have used his red burning eyes from the showa era.

Honestly though, arguing which KS is better (GFW or GvsMG74) is rather pointless....both were pretty bad in a variety of ways. I like KS, but he never has nor ever will be a big favorite of mine...it's not like his showa version was anything to write home about (sorry KS fans)

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:50 am
by kpa
MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:51 am
by kpa
MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:05 am
by MouthForWar
kpa wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:
Legacy_Of_Gamera wrote:It's funny... Kitamura's favorite monster is King
Seesar... wonder why he would let it bomb so badly on screen?


King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


You've got that pretty much backwards, MFW. The reason the monsters have so little screentime is because Kitamura was more interested in filming kung fu fights and motorcycle chases and he tailored the script in that direction.

Wakasa told me back in September 2004 that he prioritized the suits based on what Toho instructed and on the amount of screentime each monster had in the screenplay (which was co-written Kitamura's friend Isao Kiriyama and revised by Kitamura himself).

King Seesar was part of the kaiju 'A' list with Godzilla, Minya, Angilas, Rodan, Gigan, Ebirah, Monster X, and Keizer Ghidorah. Seesar was designed and built to allow the suit actor to perform the jumps and kickes that Kitamura wanted.

According to Wakasa, the 'B' list was Kamakiras, Kumonga, and Manda.

Hedorah only had the one brief scene in the script so it was on the 'C' list and was the least important suit to make.

Mothra was a reused prop from TOKYO SOS and Zilla was completely CG so nothing was built for either monster.


Hmmmmmm... so in that case, since Seesar was on the A list, why does he get the same amount of screen time as the B-list? Or is it based on the suits themselves ,rather than screen time?

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:02 am
by dIsCoMbObuLaTor
I think it would probably help the next Godzilla movies that are made. If Toho puts togther and releases a type of lore for the Godzilla universe.

This Lore would layout a time-line of all the Kaiju origins and what exactly they are capable of. It would also layout a distinct history of everything that has happened up to this point. That way when new movies come out, the script-writers can have this to fall back on, then maybe mistakes like King Seesars won't be repeated and plot holes will be kept to a minimum.

There could still be "alternate Universe" movies, but I think having movies that fall back on Lore would be great. I think the Godzilla series has had enough material and writing over it's years to form some type of Lore.

Of course this may be a horrible idea and it could be my love of reading Warcraft Lore that wants this, lol XD.

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:18 pm
by kpa
MouthForWar wrote:Hmmmmmm... so in that case, since Seesar was on the A list, why does he get the same amount of screen time as the B-list? Or is it based on the suits themselves ,rather than screen time?


I've never had any interest in doing a minute count for each monster so I don't know. As far as I'm concerned none of the monster (A, B, or C list) had enough screentime in GFW.

dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I think it would probably help the next Godzilla movies that are made. If Toho puts togther and releases a type of lore for the Godzilla universe.

This Lore would layout a time-line of all the Kaiju origins and what exactly they are capable of. It would also layout a distinct history of everything that has happened up to this point. That way when new movies come out, the script-writers can have this to fall back on, then maybe mistakes like King Seesars won't be repeated and plot holes will be kept to a minimum.

There could still be "alternate Universe" movies, but I think having movies that fall back on Lore would be great. I think the Godzilla series has had enough material and writing over it's years to form some type of Lore.

Of course this may be a horrible idea and it could be my love of reading Warcraft Lore that wants this, lol XD.


A few things to remember:
1. Toho treats their monster characters like actors, and if you look at it the way they do things make much more sense. For example, a real actor like Harrison Ford has starred in movies that are part of a series (like the Star Wars and Indiana Jones films) and has appeared in a bunch of unconnected films where he's played lawyers, or cops, or whatever. His character's backstory and abilities change from film to film based on whatever role he was playing at the time.

A Toho kaiju like Mothra is handled the same way; she has been in films that were part of a series (the Showa films, the Rebirth trilogy) and she has starred in unrelated films like GMK and GFW. Her origins, looks, and powers are changed from film to film based on the different roles she has played.

2. The Millennium Series was intended to be "alternate takes" on the Godzilla characters, which meant the filmmakers could pick and choose what to include in their movies.

Most of the Millennium films open with an explanation of the timeline for that particular film... MEGAGUIRUS begins with a newsreel, GMK opens with Tachibana's speech, and the prime minister discusses the history of monster attacks early in GxMG. If you listen to the expanations the stories are easy to follow.

The beginning of FINAL WARS establishes that Godzilla was frozen decades ago and explains that the monster was mankind's greatest enemy (which eliminates many of his films from the GFW timeline). Since the 1974 MECHAGODZILLA movie never happened, King Seesar is not locked into the backstory of that film. The pre-title sequence of GFW explains that decades of war awakened giant monsters who attacked mankind again and again... since Seesar appeared like the other monsters and is controlled like the other monsters, his GFW backstory is most likely the same as the other monsters.

If you stick with what is established in each film and quit going "but that doesn't fit with another movie made in 1974" the movies are much easier to follow and enjoy (or not) on their own mertits.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:57 pm
by rogerhartfell
Did Ryuhei Kitamura even direct the monster scenes? It's kind of hard to tell but he doesn't seem to be present in the "behind the scenes" parts on the DVDs. I figured that he was somewhere else shooting the human scenes while Shogo Tomiyama was in charge of shooting the monster fights.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:54 am
by Dagarah72
MouthForWar wrote:King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


No wonder KS looked like crap in the movie. Oh well, better luck next time! If there is a next time.


Ricky

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:27 am
by kpa
rogerhartfell wrote:Did Ryuhei Kitamura even direct the monster scenes? It's kind of hard to tell but he doesn't seem to be present in the "behind the scenes" parts on the DVDs. I figured that he was somewhere else shooting the human scenes while Shogo Tomiyama was in charge of shooting the monster fights.


Eiichi Asada directed the fx, but he was working under the guidelines set up by Ryuhei Kitamura. Asada also directed the fx for TOKYO SOS and the tone is totally different. GFW was pretty much Kitamura's show, and the style, editing were all as he wanted.

Dagarah72 wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:King Seesar (as well as Hedorah) had such limited screen time because Wakasa-san was having a hard time making the suits with the time and money Toho gave him and bassically couldn't finish them on time... as far as I know, Kitamura had nothing to do with that aspect of the movie.


No wonder KS looked like crap in the movie.


Except MFW's account wasn't correct. :wink:

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:49 am
by MouthForWar
Yeah, Keith set me straight on that in case you weren't paying attention.

But it IS true that Wakasa did have limited time and budget to do all his stuff.

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:14 am
by rogerhartfell
kpa wrote:Eiichi Asada directed the fx, but he was working under the guidelines set up by Ryuhei Kitamura. Asada also directed the fx for TOKYO SOS and the tone is totally different. GFW was pretty much Kitamura's show, and the style, editing were all as he wanted.


Of course, I wasn't suggesting that the director himself had no say it in or wasn't running the show... obviously all that stuff would have been sorted out in preproduction :). I just wasn't sure wether he was actually there or not for the shooting. But I guess that's where his interest in the project lay - doing the alien martial arts fights and bike chases with more money than he had on VERSUS.

MouthForWar wrote:But it IS true that Wakasa did have limited time and budget to do all his stuff.


I seem to remember around September-October 2004, people were asking why there were no photos of Manda leaked yet... and someone 'in the know' posted that the Manda prop was still being built. Maybe my memory is decieving me or this wasn't actually the case, but if it's true, then damn. They must have really scrambled to get the film finished on time.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:07 pm
by MrShape666
Well, he still looked like a big floopy eared dog to me. Impossible to take seriously.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:30 pm
by Jim Ballard
Slightly off topic:

Wasn't Caesar one of Fujiwara's suits, or am I just imagining things? I know he did Rodan. I thought he did Caesar too, but now I can't find any sources back that up.

PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:23 pm
by Benjamin Haines
James Ballard wrote:Slightly off topic:

Wasn't Caesar one of Fujiwara's suits, or am I just imagining things? I know he did Rodan. I thought he did Caesar too, but now I can't find any sources back that up.


Yes. From the H!O interview with Shinichi Wakasa in 2004:
Shinichi Wakasa wrote:Another member of the team was Kakusei Fujiwara. Fujiwara sculpted King Caesar and Rodan... he created those characters himself.


dIsCoMbObuLaTor wrote:I just re-watched the movie today, and for some reason I never thought of this but....

Why the bloody hell is King Seesar even loose from his shrine and how can the aliens control him? To me given his origins and defensive nature towards mankind he would be like Godzilla, with no "M-Base" in his blood.....

Of course I have to remember this is Final Wars....lol :?


From that same interview:
Henshin!Online wrote:Is King Caesar still connected to the Okinawaan legend of the shisa?

Shinichi Wakasa wrote:Yes, it's the same character with the same background.


The fact that he suddenly has M-Base and is controlled by the Xilians is just a plot hole, of which there are many in Final Wars.