TALKBACK #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II

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TALKBACK #20: Godzilla vs. Mechagodzilla II

Postby lhb412 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:39 pm

"The engine room's on fire!"

This is a marked improvement. After two films that are, if anything, uneven to the point of being nonsensical, we now have a movie with a simple, streamlined plot based entirely around the monsters. The battles between said monsters are more interesting and dramatic then in the previous few outings, with each party having an entirely good reason to fight. The human characters are all more likeable, mostly becuase we have no badly thought out sub-plots to make us hate them.

Not that it is a perfect film: Rodan is far too stiff a puppet, there is a lot of really bad English language acting, and while the film does recapture a bit of the Showa era magic... close, but no cigar.

Oh, and Ifukube turns out a score that's much better than his previous two. The Mechagodzilla theme is gret!
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Postby zekend01 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:31 pm

My second favorite Heisei after vs Biollante. Great music, interesting premise with scavenging the Futurians technology... and personally I loved the "new" Mechagodzilla.

Not so good: The introduction of Baby G which forever transformers Godzilla into a lesser force. Rodan was a waste, and his motivation was hokey, even though his initial fight with Godzilla is the best tooth and nail fight in the entire 90's series. The whole life vs artificial life was kinda lost on me since their was no TRUE artificial life in the movie (MechaG was controlled by humans after all!!).

The end seemed a little long too.

Ultimately though, this was a satisfying picture overall. I enjoyed MechaG' and Goji's first square off a lot. Mikki's transformation from military tool to fully realized respect-giver of Godzilla's life has grown on me through the years as well :D
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Postby Mac » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:40 pm

No contest, the dumbest Godzilla film ever.
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Postby zekend01 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:04 pm

Mac wrote:No contest, the dumbest Godzilla film ever.


WOW :o

No way.
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Postby Legion » Sat Aug 22, 2009 10:12 pm

Yeah, sorry Mac, not even close to being the dumbest Godzilla movie.

I actually like Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla quite a bit. Depending on my mood this one is in a constant fight with Destroyah as my favorite Heisei Godzilla movie. The story is simple and though some of the special effects are pretty lame unlike the two films that came before, this one doesn't insult my intelligence or beat me over the head with annoying messages or pathetic American movie rip-offs.

And of course I have to mention Ifukube's amazing score, definitely his all-around best score of the Heisei series. This movie has a great mix of old and new tunes, with the Mechagodzilla and G-Force themes being obvious stand-outs.

Like all the Heisei movies it hasn't exactly gotten better with age, but it's still a fun watch and many times better than the films that bookend it.
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Postby heroforhirerob » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:24 pm

Probably my favorite of the Heisei series(though Destroyer gives it a lot of competition).

-Ifukube's score is excellent. Love the music playing during the Godzilla/Rodan fight.(Track 6 on the soundtrack for those who care.)

-Nice to see Rodan back. While he does appear "fakey" at time...I'd say for the most part his execution is positive.

-Demerits for using the "Mechagodzilla is having an electrical overload" three times...sheesh.(GMK had this problem too.)

-Baby Godzilla isn't totally crappy. In fact..he's kinda cool...and dare I say it...cute...but in a good way.

-Plot moves along better than the film before it..and the characters are more interesting....like the dilemma given to poor Miki...who had obviously at this point developed some sort of understanding of Godzilla(though weighing that against countless lives....).

-Demerits for the crappy Western actor playing the scientist. I swear Toho deliberately gets the worst people they can find for these types of roles.

-The new origin for MechaG made sense...for a change(though don't think too hard about anything that involves time travel).

This film doesn't recapture the Showa magic, but it does succeed in creating a magic of its own era....it feels special(even if it really isn't). Destroyer makes me feel the same really. Biollante is a good film....but doesn't give me the same feeling inside that these two films do...especially this one.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:42 pm

Another 90s-era snoozefest. This movie does absolutely nothing for me at all. :|
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Postby Mac » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:52 pm

What Godzilla film do you guys think is more poorly structured and ineptly written than this?
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Postby heroforhirerob » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:10 am

Mac wrote:What Godzilla film do you guys think is more poorly structured and ineptly written than this?


Godzilla vs Megalon for starters...and Final Wars...and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah...Godzilla vs Mothra...Gigantis....
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Postby Legion » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:42 am

heroforhirerob wrote:
Mac wrote:What Godzilla film do you guys think is more poorly structured and ineptly written than this?


Godzilla vs Megalon for starters...and Final Wars...and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah...Godzilla vs Mothra...Gigantis....


Don't forget Space Godzilla.

I just don't see how GvsMG is inept or badly written. It's a really simple, straightforward film. In fact it'd say it's probably one of the simplest Heisei Godzilla films in terms of being able to follow the plot. And I don't see how anyone could criticize the film's structure when the movie throws lots of monster action at you very early on and doesn't make you wait for it either.
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Postby Mac » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:04 am

Godzilla vs Megalon for starters...and Final Wars...and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah...Godzilla vs Mothra...Gigantis....


Godzilla vs Megalon is your standard Tokusatsu pilot that is tripled in length. It's structure is simple and straightforward, not stupid. Robot created (For no reason?), monster attacks city, they fight. I'd comment on Godzilla Raids Again, but I haven't seen it in awhile.

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah is confusing, and Godzilla vs Mothra is just a piss-poor remake modeled on an earlier film. Neither of those are stupid, and both contain a consistent (And in KG's case, good) tone.

There are only three Godzilla films that come close to the ineptitude of GvsMG2. Godzilla: Final Wars is silly, but I'll need to watch it again before I can go in-depth further. However, I remember Godzilla's anti-villain status being well done, so more power to GFW. Godzilla vs Spacegodzilla and Godzilla vs Destroyah are also close contenders, due to their random sub-plots that go no where, but they're even more rational than GvsMG2.

Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla 2 consists of the worst narrative change in probably any film in recent memory. Godzilla is potrayed as the enemy of the film for most of the movie, like he did in most of the previous movie. That's fine, seeing as we're watching the characters trying their hardest to find a way to stop the foe of theirs who is killing thousands of people. However, after the final battle between Mechagodzilla, Rodan and Godzilla are shown in a sympathetic light, for no reason what-so-ever. Then the film decides to end with the destruction of Mecha-Godzilla, and Godzilla swimming away. I mean the whole change is rather staggering in it's shoddiness.

It's the equivalent of letting Megalon win, and having him safely return to Seatopia. It makes no "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!" sense, and doesn't rap up the story at all.
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Postby zekend01 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:23 am

Mac wrote:
Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla 2 consists of the worst narrative change in probably any film in recent memory. Godzilla is potrayed as the enemy of the film for most of the movie, like he did in most of the previous movie. That's fine, seeing as we're watching the characters trying their hardest to find a way to stop the foe of theirs who is killing thousands of people. However, after the final battle between Mechagodzilla, Rodan and Godzilla are shown in a sympathetic light, for no reason what-so-ever. Then the film decides to end with the destruction of Mecha-Godzilla, and Godzilla swimming away. I mean the whole change is rather staggering in it's shoddiness.

It's the equivalent of letting Megalon win, and having him safely return to Seatopia. It makes no OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE sense, and doesn't rap up the story at all.


I think it is a matter of the ever-changing perspective of the human characters that move the movie along, and the transformation of their attitudes toward their place in the whole paradigm. This movie is about emotional and spiritual growth for all the players, including Godzilla. The end result? Humility and compassion.

The main heros were always kind of open to a larger consideration of Godzilla along the way and Mikki really pushes for this bookend in her "journey". The MechaG pilots demonstrate the most transformation of this higher understanding and are really the "average joes" of the movie (the film spectators if you will). General Aso, the bloodthirsty one, would earn the most turmoil by the end of the picture as-per the implications of his character. The movie isn't about a broad good vs evil, but rather the big gray in the middle that's being negotiated through the eyes of the human element.

:wink:
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:24 am

zekend01 wrote:
Mac wrote:
Godzilla vs Mechagodzilla 2 consists of the worst narrative change in probably any film in recent memory. Godzilla is potrayed as the enemy of the film for most of the movie, like he did in most of the previous movie. That's fine, seeing as we're watching the characters trying their hardest to find a way to stop the foe of theirs who is killing thousands of people. However, after the final battle between Mechagodzilla, Rodan and Godzilla are shown in a sympathetic light, for no reason what-so-ever. Then the film decides to end with the destruction of Mecha-Godzilla, and Godzilla swimming away. I mean the whole change is rather staggering in it's shoddiness.

It's the equivalent of letting Megalon win, and having him safely return to Seatopia. It makes no OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE sense, and doesn't rap up the story at all.


I think it is a matter of the ever-changing perspective of the human characters that move the movie along, and the transformation of their attitudes toward their place in the whole paradigm. This movie is about emotional and spiritual growth for all the players, including Godzilla. The end result? Humility and compassion.

The main heros were always kind of open to a larger consideration of Godzilla along the way and Mikki really pushes for this bookend in her "journey". The MechaG pilots demonstrate the most transformation of this higher understanding and are really the "average joes" of the movie (the film spectators if you will). General Aso, the bloodthirsty one, would earn the most turmoil by the end of the picture as-per the implications of his character. The movie isn't about a broad good vs evil, but rather the big gray in the middle that's being negotiated through the eyes of the human element.

:wink:


Yay! :clap:

Not one of my favorites but deff not even close to being the worst
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Postby zekend01 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:27 am

:D
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Postby Legion » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:39 am

Thanks Zekend. You said that much better than I ever could.

Can you imagine how this movie would have turned out if Mechagodzilla outright killed Godzilla and the movie ended? I actually think that was the original intent of the filmmakers. I'm glad they didn't go in that direction and this is what we ended up getting. It's silly to complain that suddenly we're expected to sympathize with Godzilla. We've always sympathized with him, even when he's been the bad guy.
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Postby zekend01 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:53 am

Legion wrote:Thanks Zekend. You said that much better than I ever could.

Can you imagine how this movie would have turned out if Mechagodzilla outright killed Godzilla and the movie ended? I actually think that was the original intent of the filmmakers. I'm glad they didn't go in that direction and this is what we ended up getting. It's silly to complain that suddenly we're expected to sympathize with Godzilla. We've always sympathized with him, even when he's been the bad guy.


Right! And Godzilla himself gains the most humility because he now has a son to be responsible for. He has to think of someone else for once instead of being preoccupied with being the top badass of all time :lol:
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:21 pm

zekend01 wrote:
Legion wrote:Thanks Zekend. You said that much better than I ever could.

Can you imagine how this movie would have turned out if Mechagodzilla outright killed Godzilla and the movie ended? I actually think that was the original intent of the filmmakers. I'm glad they didn't go in that direction and this is what we ended up getting. It's silly to complain that suddenly we're expected to sympathize with Godzilla. We've always sympathized with him, even when he's been the bad guy.


Right! And Godzilla himself gains the most humility because he now has a son to be responsible for. He has to think of someone else for once instead of being preoccupied with being the top badass of all time :lol:


Until the next film where he just leaves his "son" in a cage and just walks off..Godzilla is still an a$$ lol...dad or no
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Postby zekend01 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:26 pm

King_Ghidorah wrote:
zekend01 wrote:
Legion wrote:Thanks Zekend. You said that much better than I ever could.

Can you imagine how this movie would have turned out if Mechagodzilla outright killed Godzilla and the movie ended? I actually think that was the original intent of the filmmakers. I'm glad they didn't go in that direction and this is what we ended up getting. It's silly to complain that suddenly we're expected to sympathize with Godzilla. We've always sympathized with him, even when he's been the bad guy.


Right! And Godzilla himself gains the most humility because he now has a son to be responsible for. He has to think of someone else for once instead of being preoccupied with being the top badass of all time :lol:


Until the next film where he just leaves his "son" in a cage and just walks off..Godzilla is still an a$$ lol...dad or no


My dad used to do the same thing :cry: ....









:lmfao: :wink:
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Postby Legion » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:29 pm

King_Ghidorah wrote:
Until the next film where he just leaves his "son" in a cage and just walks off..Godzilla is still an a$$ lol...dad or no


Well to be fair, he did try to break him out of there. Toho just didn't want us to see him do it. :lol:
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:31 pm

Wow...you both dropped some awesome quips there...kudos guys! :lol:
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Postby kpa » Sun Aug 23, 2009 7:00 pm

I'm agreement with Legion and Zekend. The film is no masterpiece but the story is rather straightforward.

Mac description of everything changing after the final battle is incorrect. The change begins with the birth of Baby Godzilla... from that point on the main characters start to take on a position that the monsters aren't just menaces but creatures that also have their place in the world.

Godzilla also shows some changes early in the film. He lashes out repeatedly when first arriving in Japan to get Baby, but after sensing Baby's fear he calms down and dejectedly returns to the sea. The melancholy music that plays during this sequence also attempts establish empathy for Godzilla rather than portraying him as just an enemy.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:20 pm

kpa wrote:I'm agreement with Legion and Zekend. The film is no masterpiece but the story is rather straightforward.

Mac description of everything changing after the final battle is incorrect. The change begins with the birth of Baby Godzilla... from that point on the main characters start to take on a position that the monsters aren't just menaces but creatures that also have their place in the world.

Godzilla also shows some changes early in the film. He lashes out repeatedly when first arriving in Japan to get Baby, but after sensing Baby's fear he calms down and dejectedly returns to the sea. The melancholy music that plays during this sequence also attempts establish empathy for Godzilla rather than portraying him as just an enemy.


Agreed. This isn't the best Heisei movie, but its a good one. A big step up from GvsMothra. Ifukube's score is amazing (and was apparently one of his favorites as well). The characters are pretty likable (Aoiki is a funny dude) and the monsters are the real stars. The stiff Rodan prop will always bother me to no end, but I find this one of the most entertaining Godzilla movies from the post-Showa era.

I also have to agree with Keith, Legion and Zekend that Mac's complaints don't really hold much weight. Even the military start thinking of the monsters a bit differently after Baby is born and Rodan starts looking for him. The characters actually arc in this movie, which is rare in the Heisei series.

I still think what would have been had Honda signed on direct, which he considered doing.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:35 pm

I really enjoy this film. While Biollante is my favorite Heisei, this is my 2nd favorite. I don't know why though. I always harp on the Rodan prop and I hate the MechaG in this one...but I enjoy it. MechaGodzilla's march is awesome, and for some reason if I feel like popping in a Heisei film...this is the one I go for. I also, really enjoy the wacky logic within the film.


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Postby Legion » Sun Aug 23, 2009 9:38 pm

I genuinely feel bad for Godzilla in this movie. As far as I'm concerned he doesn't really do anything wrong in this film. He only shows up when the egg containing Baby Godzilla is disturbed and only ends up in Japanese because he's following it. And then later he's tricked into following Baby Godzilla into a battle with Mechagodzilla which ends with him almost getting killed.

Not everyone will agree with me (and I believe I'm echoing Steve Ryfle's opinion here) but everything starting with Rodan's capture of the container carrying Baby is really one of the most gripping things seen in any Heisei film. There's a lot of drama here because lives (both human and monster) hang in the balance.
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Postby heroforhirerob » Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:36 pm

Legion wrote:
heroforhirerob wrote:
Mac wrote:What Godzilla film do you guys think is more poorly structured and ineptly written than this?


Godzilla vs Megalon for starters...and Final Wars...and Godzilla vs King Ghidorah...Godzilla vs Mothra...Gigantis....


Don't forget Space Godzilla.

I just don't see how GvsMG is inept or badly written. It's a really simple, straightforward film. In fact it'd say it's probably one of the simplest Heisei Godzilla films in terms of being able to follow the plot. And I don't see how anyone could criticize the film's structure when the movie throws lots of monster action at you very early on and doesn't make you wait for it either.


Heh heh....the dots at the end of my list left it open to add to the list as per one's interpretation...or my forgetfulness...but no way is this film on the list...seriously....this is one of the better films of the era...easily.
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