TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:54 pm

Jorzilla wrote:The plot isn't very good.

fixed :wink:
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Benjamin Haines » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:04 pm

The Futurians went to 1992 because they wanted to rewrite Japan's history from that point in time by giving the Japanese government a computer which charted a very specific and restrained course of development for the country from then on. How the computer would have worked is only vaguely explained but that is the reason they went to 1992.

I suppose in that light, the movie could be seen as a referendum on unbridled capitalism vs. heavily restrictive communism, with the former portrayed as a very positive thing for Japan's future with the potential to turn the country into the world's #1 superpower.


Jorzilla wrote:I think it's interesting that the first place King Ghidorah attacks is Hiroshima.


It was Fukuoka.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Jorzilla » Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:06 pm

Benjamin Haines wrote:
It was Fukuoka.
He most definitely attacks Hiroshima in his initial attack. Look at this youtubes: http://youtu.be/smnEUdXJKhU?t=1m27s
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Benjamin Haines » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:10 am

^ That composite shot with the Atomic Bomb Dome doesn't actually appear in the movie, just in the trailer. King Ghidorah's first attack is on Kyushu before moving north to Hokkaido. Although it's not far from Fukuoka prefecture, Hiroshima is in western Honshu.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:36 am

and now you know the rest of the story
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Jorzilla » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:31 am

Benjamin Haines wrote:^ That composite shot with the Atomic Bomb Dome doesn't actually appear in the movie, just in the trailer. King Ghidorah's first attack is on Kyushu before moving north to Hokkaido. Although it's not far from Fukuoka prefecture, Hiroshima is in western Honshu.


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This composite happens at the 49:30 mark of the film. He attacks Hiroshima.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Benjamin Haines » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:08 am

^ Ah, you're right, that is in the film, in the scene after Wilson directs King Ghidorah to head north to Hokkaido. I missed that.

However, that's not King Ghidorah's initial attack. He hits Fukuoka first.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby eabaker » Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:54 pm

Benjamin Haines wrote:The Futurians went to 1992 because they wanted to rewrite Japan's history from that point in time by giving the Japanese government a computer which charted a very specific and restrained course of development for the country from then on. How the computer would have worked is only vaguely explained but that is the reason they went to 1992.

I suppose in that light, the movie could be seen as a referendum on unbridled capitalism vs. heavily restrictive communism, with the former portrayed as a very positive thing for Japan's future with the potential to turn the country into the world's #1 superpower.


Jorzilla wrote:I think it's interesting that the first place King Ghidorah attacks is Hiroshima.


It was Fukuoka.


I don't think the movie is portraying unbridled capitalism in an especially positive light; the movie feels pretty harsh, to me, in its view on the morals/ethics of post-war Japan. If anything, I feel like the narrative is most sympathetic to Emi's perspective, encouraging Japan to change courses, but not approving of the extreme means to which her comrades would go to force that change.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:49 pm

I wish they had just thrown out everything to do with King Ghidorah and focused on Shindo since...he's basically the only person trying, or at least the only person whose effort amounts to something. That moment with him and Godzilla feels like it has impact because Tsuchiya is great, but if the film were sort of built around that moment and helped support it...it'd mean something more. Ugh. I point at Ghidorah and Omori's desire to emulate the Terminator films. The most engaging part of the narrative is the sense that Godzilla saved these people...and Shindo has built this modern metropolis so it becomes a story of the man or men Godzilla allowed to live, and then is their judgment day (DOHO LIKE DA TERMINATUR). I dunno that's probably just as dumb.

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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 10:32 am

Has anybody else ever been struck by how horrible a person Emmy is, not only her actions themselves but also just how terribly written a character she is?

She places the Dorats on Lagos Island, thus birthing King Ghidorah and causing the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people before Godzilla kills KG, she also (indirectly) causes the creation of the new Godzilla, she also flirts with her distant relative constantly despite him having a girlfriend/fiance and of course being his RELATIVE, and when she travels into the future to create Mecha-King Ghidorah, she doesn't return to 1992 until like 15 hours later, allowing Godzilla to first go on a rampage causing billions of property damage and many innocent lives before finally showing up to do anything about it.

What a shrew!

Then there are also just the terrible writing issues with her character: why would she agree to go back in the first place? You might argue she had been lied to by Wilson, and that he said they were gonna go back to warn Japan of the consequences of unbridled capitalism that would lead to a future wherein they dominate a world that hates them for it....but then why would she go along with the rest of the plan? Why would she go along with the Godzilla facade? Why would she leave the Dorats on Lagos Island? What was the original plan from which Wilson deviated that caused her to become so disillusioned and angry? What causes her to chastize Miki for being overly sentimental about changing history and then two seconds later going through the same thing with Wilson?

The Emmy character is ATROCIOUS, as a person and as a plot device.

She's a HUGE part of the many problems I have with this film and....well, I don't wanna open the can of worms with my beliefs about the time-travel stuff here, AGAIN, but hopefully we can leave it at: the disastrous writing with the Emmy character is the reason I just can't bring myself to believe what most people accept as the truth about the time-travel stuff (ie, Keith's SFJ article).

All of that long-winded stuff said, the tl;dr version is: the second half of the film's not bad, but the first half is horrid. Overalls it's an uneven film, but relatively enjoyable.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:06 am

I mean this movie is typically just a blob of dumb, but the dorat thing is especially stupid. I guess I've just become so desensitized to it all.
I think M-11 releasing the Dorats would make the most sense. Especially since they make such a point of him being reprogrammed later on.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:11 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:I mean this movie is typically just a blob of dumb, but the dorat thing is especially stupid. I guess I've just become so desensitized to it all.
I think M-11 releasing the Dorats would make the most sense. Especially since they make such a point of him being reprogrammed later on.

Yeah, that still wouldn't fix a lot of the movie's problems and wouldn't entirely repair the Emmy character, but it's a little thing that actually would go a LONG way.

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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:29 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:I mean this movie is typically just a blob of dumb, but the dorat thing is especially stupid. I guess I've just become so desensitized to it all.
I think M-11 releasing the Dorats would make the most sense. Especially since they make such a point of him being reprogrammed later on.

Yeah, that still wouldn't fix a lot of the movie's problems and wouldn't entirely repair the Emmy character, but it's a little thing that actually would go a LONG way.

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"A better script."
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:39 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:"A better script."

were that uttered at that point, this would be the best movie ever.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:41 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:"A better script."

were that uttered at that point, this would be the best movie ever.


If you just What's Up Tiger Lily'd the Heisei series from vs. King Ghidorah to vs. Destroyah you'd end up with the best thing ever.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:41 pm

btw, anybody ever notice that when the "holograms" are standing outside the ship, Emmy's hair is blowing in the breeze?

Whoops!
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:42 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:btw, anybody ever notice that when the "holograms" are standing outside the ship, Emmy's hair is blowing in the breeze?

Whoops!


That's just the fan on the hologram system to keep it from overheating.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:44 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:btw, anybody ever notice that when the "holograms" are standing outside the ship, Emmy's hair is blowing in the breeze?

Whoops!


That's just the fan on the hologram system to keep it from overheating.

well now I'M embarrassed.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Thu Apr 17, 2014 1:50 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:Also, I made this.
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One of the best matte shots ever and that entire scene with Godzilla's entrance and Ilfukube's score is one of my absolute favorites.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Jorzilla » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:08 pm

This is my observation, so if you like this film, and you don't agree with me, I'm sorry but I'm going to make a generalization.

Similar to Godzilla vs. Destroyah's death scene redeeming a lot of the qualities of that film, this is a perfect example of a poor Heisei movie being redeemed by one specific element:

Godzilla's on screen presence.

There is no doubt in my mind that this is one of the best executions of Godzilla on screen. He's incredibly powerful, has a great design and roar. Ifukube's score when he's on screen is TOP NOTCH. He destroys King Ghidorah when they fight. He is seriously a BAMF in this film.

He also appears past the half way mark. His on screen presence in the last 1/3rd of the film is this movies saving grace. Here's my pros and cons list:

Pros
Godzilla is a total bad@ss in this movie.
Godzilla's design is great.
The monster fights are nicely paced, choreographed and executed.
Godzilla sounds awesome.

Cons
The writing in this movie is A-W-F-U-L.
King Ghidorah is a downgrade in almost every conceivable way compared to his Showa incarnation. From origin, to execution (no flailing heads), his new design, the change in his voice. Mecha King Ghidorah is kind of cool from an over-the-top Tokusatsu/Anime perspective, but objectively it's a pretty dumb idea.
The plot is garbage.
Godzillasaurus is a piss poor excuse for Godzilla action, get watching him clumsily stomp on Marines and get bloodily shot by artillery is not a substitute for Godzilla action. Most Heisei films have an early scene with Godzilla, then more plot, then Godzilla, some final plot, and then the final battle. This movie's early scene with Godzilla is Godzillasaurus.
The special effects are a noticeable downgrade from Godzilla vs. Biollante. Now Kawakita might not be totally to blame since the free reign he had over Biollante was reigned in after poor ticket performance, but some of this films miniature work and matte shots are simply jarring.
...and M11.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:19 pm

^I think this film has more going for it in comparison to Destoroyah than JUST Godzilla, but I agree with the general premise of your argument.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby klen7 » Thu Apr 17, 2014 2:30 pm

i think you mistakenly included M11 in the wrong grouping.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby GFan » Fri Apr 18, 2014 3:10 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Has anybody else ever been struck by how horrible a person Emmy is, not only her actions themselves but also just how terribly written a character she is?

She places the Dorats on Lagos Island, thus birthing King Ghidorah and causing the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of people before Godzilla kills KG, she also (indirectly) causes the creation of the new Godzilla, she also flirts with her distant relative constantly despite him having a girlfriend/fiance and of course being his RELATIVE, and when she travels into the future to create Mecha-King Ghidorah, she doesn't return to 1992 until like 15 hours later, allowing Godzilla to first go on a rampage causing billions of property damage and many innocent lives before finally showing up to do anything about it.

What a shrew!

Then there are also just the terrible writing issues with her character: why would she agree to go back in the first place? You might argue she had been lied to by Wilson, and that he said they were gonna go back to warn Japan of the consequences of unbridled capitalism that would lead to a future wherein they dominate a world that hates them for it....but then why would she go along with the rest of the plan? Why would she go along with the Godzilla facade? Why would she leave the Dorats on Lagos Island? What was the original plan from which Wilson deviated that caused her to become so disillusioned and angry? What causes her to chastize Miki for being overly sentimental about changing history and then two seconds later going through the same thing with Wilson?

The Emmy character is ATROCIOUS, as a person and as a plot device.

She's a HUGE part of the many problems I have with this film and....well, I don't wanna open the can of worms with my beliefs about the time-travel stuff here, AGAIN, but hopefully we can leave it at: the disastrous writing with the Emmy character is the reason I just can't bring myself to believe what most people accept as the truth about the time-travel stuff (ie, Keith's SFJ article).

All of that long-winded stuff said, the tl;dr version is: the second half of the film's not bad, but the first half is horrid. Overalls it's an uneven film, but relatively enjoyable.


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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby kiryugoji04 » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:26 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:"A better script."

were that uttered at that point, this would be the best movie ever.


If you just What's Up Tiger Lily'd the Heisei series from vs. King Ghidorah to vs. Destroyah you'd end up with the best thing ever.


I have legitimately talked about doing something like this before. XD
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Apr 24, 2014 5:20 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:were that uttered at that point, this would be the best movie ever.


If you just What's Up Tiger Lily'd the Heisei series from vs. King Ghidorah to vs. Destroyah you'd end up with the best thing ever.


I have legitimately talked about doing something like this before. XD


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