TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Discuss the 2nd Godzilla film era here! Beam fights, revised versions of classic kaiju, the Heisei era was a mixed bag of fun and controversy!

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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Jorzilla » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:21 pm

I would rather have more Godzilla and less Godzillasaurus. I guess Toho thought they were equivalents when making the film.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Pkmatrix » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:39 pm

eabaker wrote:
Gman2887 wrote:I guess I fall somewhere in between. I thought the first 30 minutes following Teresawa was really interesting and I pretty much love everything from when Godzilla comes ashore to the end. And at least one character is doing something during the final battle other than watching. (Omori really doesn't know what to do with these characters by the end... Something Okawara seemed to have inherited from him.) The journey to Lagos Island isn't very good and it really drags. So I guess I'm not a huge fan of Act II.


This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. The steady build-up at the start totally draws me in, and as soon as Godzilla comes ashore and the action kicks in, I'm on-board until the end.


I guess you guys are right, I think I'm being a bit too harsh on the third Act. :oops: I don't dislike Act II or Act III at all, I just don't like them nearly as much as I like Act I. There are a lot of good ideas presented in the latter two-thirds of the movie, but I wasn't satisfied with how they were executed. In particular, I really don't like that the whole cast besides Emi vanishes in the last third of the movie. Why does this problem keep coming up every so often? There are a few other movies in the franchise with very similar Act III issues.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:43 pm

The second act is really truly awful. The first act is slow and full of silliness, the second act is where the movie falls to pieces....

Emmy leaves behind the Dorats, then acts indignant when King Ghidorah appears.
There's no reason to take anybody back to the past.
The scenes in the past are pretty awful.
All the stuff with M11 is brutal.

I could get on board with this movie more if the first 15-20 minutes weren't so dull and the middle 30 weren't absolutely IDIOTIC.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Jorzilla » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:35 pm

I think it's one of the movies that is loved because of Godzilla's execution, sound design and the fights (short as they are) alone. This movie doesn't have much of anything else going for it.

...that being said it's still one of the better Heisei movies.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby MekaGojira3k » Sun Jan 19, 2014 5:59 pm

I think the Terasawa investigating Godzilla's origins is interesting, but I can care less about the Futurians.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Rody » Sun Jan 19, 2014 6:47 pm

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is definitely a film with great ideas and potential, but shoddy execution. The more I think about Emi, the more I feel that her character doesn't make sense at all. Why is she here? What was she expecting? She seems to be badly naive about the workings of the plan.

Dr. Kain also mentioned the book paradox. This is an aspect which I believe could have been easily fixed with re-writing. Instead of presenting the finished book to Terisawa, the Futurians return to 1992 because they don't have the information on Godzilla's origin; perhaps in the 23rd century, that has become confidential information which the Futurians can't get ahold of (Emi did say hardly anyone knew about Terisawa's book).
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Hybrid Gojira » Mon Jan 20, 2014 10:48 am

jellydonut25 wrote:I just find the first 40 minutes or so to be extremely BORING.


I'd agree with this, but I really like the fight scenes and Godzilla's entrance is great. I love the matte shots and Ikfukube's score during his trek across the countryside.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby ILL GREEN » Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:18 pm

As a whole, I do like the movie. But I can't help the echo in the back of my mind yelling "RUSHED!".

I didn't like the suit of Godzilla, seemed too bulky and the shoulders. Why does King Ghidorah has showa Rodan's roar? There's three heads. Also how did Toho obtain Gamera's roar in the 1954 scene for the Godzilla dinosaur? A lot of issues for me.

I do like the movie though, I guess they tried to fit in all the ideas in a short amount of time.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby eabaker » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:52 pm

While the first act is slow, I don't find that slowness at all problematic. To me, the first act feels like a well paced build up; the problem is that the second act isn't worth the wait.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Gman2887 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:25 pm

eabaker wrote:While the first act is slow, I don't find that slowness at all problematic. To me, the first act feels like a well paced build up; the problem is that the second act isn't worth the wait.


Ditto, but Godzilla's return through the end was certainly worth getting through that second act. It doesn't excuse its problems, but it does well enough to make me forget them while watching.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Legion » Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:55 am

Rody wrote:Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is definitely a film with great ideas and potential, but shoddy execution. The more I think about Emi, the more I feel that her character doesn't make sense at all. Why is she here? What was she expecting? She seems to be badly naive about the workings of the plan.


I've always felt like they wanted another Miss Namikawa type character, someone who starts out evil but then jumps sides and helps the good guys win. But, this being the Heisei series, they had no idea how to do it right.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby king_ghidorah » Thu Jan 23, 2014 10:20 am

Legion wrote:
Rody wrote:Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is definitely a film with great ideas and potential, but shoddy execution. The more I think about Emi, the more I feel that her character doesn't make sense at all. Why is she here? What was she expecting? She seems to be badly naive about the workings of the plan.


I've always felt like they wanted another Miss Namikawa type character, someone who starts out evil but then jumps sides and helps the good guys win. But, this being the Heisei series, they had no idea how to do it right.

:lol:
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Dr Kain » Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:18 am

Legion wrote:I've always felt like they wanted another Miss Namikawa type character, someone who starts out evil but then jumps sides and helps the good guys win. But, this being the Heisei series, they had no idea how to do it right.


:roll:

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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Legion » Sat Jan 25, 2014 9:57 am

I hope you're not rolling your eyes at me, Kain.

And yes, the Heisei series had absolutely NO idea how to take great ideas and flesh them out. That's one of the series' biggest flaws. Movies like Biollante, King Ghidorah and Desotryah are full of fantastic concepts, but no one was able to take these concepts are really run with them. And when they couldn't think of new ideas, they'd just copy what worked in the older movies.

I mean, wtf was up with Emi? She voluntarily goes along with this plan and at the beginning it's made clear that she's one of the bad guys, down to her expressions and body language. Then, after Ghidorah finally appears, her character changes completely, she does a complete 180 and decides to help the good guys. Why? You mean she had no idea what her partners were really up to? I have a hard time believing she was that stupid. Honestly, it really does seem to me that they were using Miss Namikawa in MZ as inspiration. She's a popular, cult "human" character in a Honda film who starts out evil and then is motivated to switch sides and help the good guys win. Isn't that exactly what what Emi does? But while Namikawa's actions are believable, nothing Emi does makes any sense. When they announce that King Ghidorah has appeared and Emi suddenly looks shocked, my reaction is, "Well, what the hell did you think was going to happen, you dumbass?"
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Dr Kain » Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:57 pm

s
Legion wrote:I hope you're not rolling your eyes at me, Kain.

And yes, the Heisei series had absolutely NO idea how to take great ideas and flesh them out. That's one of the series' biggest flaws. Movies like Biollante, King Ghidorah and Desotryah are full of fantastic concepts, but no one was able to take these concepts are really run with them. And when they couldn't think of new ideas, they'd just copy what worked in the older movies.


It was. Look, the Heisei series is not perfect, it is definitely flawed, but your comment was saying it didn't work because it was the Heisei series, and then you go to talk about the superiority of the Showa series. I'm not going to turn this into another era debate, but the Showa series is far from perfect as well. Just because it was in the Heisei/90s series does not make it automatically bad.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 2:09 pm

I agree with Kain. Heisei series doesn't make it bad.
90s is what makes it bad. The 90s films are the suck.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Legion » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:13 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I agree with Kain. Heisei series doesn't make it bad.
90s is what makes it bad. The 90s films are the suck.


Yeah, that's still 5 out of 7 films, and I don't even count G'84 because it features a different crew anyway. But even Biollante has problems that plague the rest of the Heisei series. Yeah, the effects are great, but there's still a lot of great concepts that I wish they had done more with.

So yeah, it's a common Heisei problem. I stand by that.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Pkmatrix » Sat Jan 25, 2014 3:47 pm

Legion wrote:Yeah, that's still 5 out of 7 films, and I don't even count G'84 because it features a different crew anyway. But even Biollante has problems that plague the rest of the Heisei series. Yeah, the effects are great, but there's still a lot of great concepts that I wish they had done more with.

So yeah, it's a common Heisei problem. I stand by that.


I disagreed with your initial statement, but this is pretty much true. IMO, the five '90s films all represent wasted opportunities despite how much I enjoy a few of them. I will point out, though, that IMO Biollante stands apart because while it superficially has similar issues to the films that follow it, it's overall far better executed than everything released between 1991 and 1998. While most people like to point to the FX, I prefer to point out that the cinematography, editing, lighting, story, set design, and tone all seem a step or two above the best of what what the '90s had to offer. This is why I find it far more useful to refer to '80s Godzilla and '90s Godzilla rather than Heisei Godzilla as a whole unit. There is a clear delineating point, and that is this film.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Dr Kain » Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:42 pm

Pkmatrix wrote: lighting,


Sorry dude, I like my lighting better in the Heisei movies as night battles are much cooler than day time ones.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Legion » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:08 pm

I thought the editing was actually terrible in Biollante. It feel like scenes jump back and forth to different locations and times of day without a real feeling of cohesion, and a lot of that has to do with scenes that were removed as well as a general laziness to the scene transitions. I feel like fade outs/ins and creative scene transitions are rare in the Heisei films. Instead, they just cut from one scene to another, sometimes abruptly, and there's no feeling like one scene naturally leads into another. The problem with Biollante also extends to the score, which is just a dozen suites chopped apart and inserted wherever there's room, in addition to the Ostinato Ifukube tracks.

One great example is the beginning of the Lake Ashinoko battle. Godzilla's entrance is completely deleted, so they go from a military mobilization right the battle, with Godzilla just showing up and already in the lake. They cover for this with a terrible, fuzzy wipe, while the music that plays during the military mobilization simply stops dead.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:24 pm

Dr Kain wrote:
Pkmatrix wrote: lighting,


Sorry dude, I like my lighting better in the Heisei movies as night battles are much cooler than day time ones.

Eh...some of the Heisei lighting tropes start to bother me at times. I think of films like GvsMothra and GvsSpaceGodzilla that see to have spotlights and I wonder where those spotlights come from.

Or a film like GvsKing Ghidorah where MechaKG appears and those lights shine behind him and I just can't help but think about how clichéd, and FAR too on-the-nose that is. The Showa series films never needed that unnecessary blast of light from out of nowhere to create any drama. KG's appearance in DAM in unaccompanied by that heavy-handed forced dramatic lighting.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Gman2887 » Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:43 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:KG's appearance in DAM in unaccompanied by that heavy-handed forced dramatic lighting.


No, instead it's stock footage. Which is a vast gulf better.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby jellydonut25 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:09 pm

I was more referring to when he lands among all the other monsters.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Gman2887 » Sun Jan 26, 2014 4:11 pm

Some of this nitpicking is just silly at this point. On-the-nose lighting? What about Godzilla's entrance in Terror of MechaGodzilla? Badass as it is, I suppose it should be taken down a few notches because of a giant headlamp that shines on his face after lightening strikes. Oh, different era? All is forgiven.

And this goofy nitpicking at edits in Godzilla vs. Biollante is as pretentious as it gets. Though I suppose we can forgive the fact that Ghidorah: The Three Headed Monster magically goes from night, to day, to night again when the Princess is about to be murdered in the hotel/Godzilla rises to the always sunny in Korbe Gorge scene. The editing in that film is amongst the worst in the series, but it's still one hell of a wiz-bang, jackhammer of a film. Biollante is a fun one as well.
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Re: TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Postby Legion » Sun Jan 26, 2014 5:08 pm

Gman2887 wrote:
And this goofy nitpicking at edits in Godzilla vs. Biollante is as pretentious as it gets.


I don't think it's goofy nit-picking when you're trying to enjoy something as an actual FILM and the editing gives it a schizophrenic feel.

I suppose we can forgive the fact that Ghidorah: The Three Headed Monster magically goes from night, to day, to night again when the Princess is about to be murdered in the hotel/Godzilla rises to the always sunny in Korbe Gorge scene. The editing in that film is amongst the worst in the series,


I'll take that over "vs Mothra" or "vs Mechagodzilla" where the scenes immediately go from night to day within the span of a solitary shot.

It's kinda sad that these days it's impossible to intelligently talk about these films without being called a pretentious nit-picker. Sometimes I hate this damn fandom.
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