TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

Discuss the 2nd Godzilla film era here! Beam fights, revised versions of classic kaiju, the Heisei era was a mixed bag of fun and controversy!

Moderator: Controllers

Postby The Dark Uniter » Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:37 pm

The only negative I find in this film [like in Tokyo SOS] is there's a continuity error. Like Tokyo SOS where Godzilla die from the oxygen destroryer and get his bones [how the heck they manage to do that?], Godzilla vs King Ghidorah tell us that a dinosaur help out a Japanese military which ends up being Godzilla which makes the timeline confusing as heck.
Last edited by The Dark Uniter on Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Formerly known as TylerPreston
The Dark Uniter
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:06 pm
Location: Upper Marlboro, Maryland USA

Postby kpa » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:20 pm

The Dark Uniter wrote:The only negative I find in this film [like in Tokyo SOS] is there's a continuny error. Like Tokyo SOS where Godzilla die from the oxygen destroryer and get his bones [how the heck they manage to do that?],


Toho made the Millennium movies to be alternate takes on Godzilla not locked to previous continuity so the filmmakers could try out different ideas... they're basically the movie equivalent of Marvel's "What If" and DC's "Elseworlds" comics. MEGAGUIRUS is "what if Godzilla was not been killed by the Oxygen Destroyer?', GMK is "what if Godzilla had not been seen since 1954?", and GxMG and TOKYO start with "what if Godzilla's bones had not been dissolved by the Oxygen Destroyer?". There's no continuity errors because these movies were never meant to fit what had happened in the older movies.

Godzilla vs King Ghidorah tell us that a dinosaur help out a Japanese military which ends up being Godzilla which makes the timeline confusing as heck.


You might find this useful in explaining the continuity of GvsKG...

http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2007 ... -godzilla/
Keith
Image
User avatar
kpa
Monster 01
 
Posts: 3273
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 5:39 pm
Location: CA

Postby The Dark Uniter » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:51 pm

Thank you for the article, it really explains alot. :D
Formerly known as TylerPreston
The Dark Uniter
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 334
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:06 pm
Location: Upper Marlboro, Maryland USA

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 pm

kpa wrote:
The Dark Uniter wrote:The only negative I find in this film [like in Tokyo SOS] is there's a continuny error. Like Tokyo SOS where Godzilla die from the oxygen destroryer and get his bones [how the heck they manage to do that?],


Toho made the Millennium movies to be alternate takes on Godzilla not locked to previous continuity so the filmmakers could try out different ideas... they're basically the movie equivalent of Marvel's "What If" and DC's "Elseworlds" comics. MEGAGUIRUS is "what if Godzilla was not been killed by the Oxygen Destroyer?', GMK is "what if Godzilla had not been seen since 1954?", and GxMG and TOKYO start with "what if Godzilla's bones had not been dissolved by the Oxygen Destroyer?". There's no continuity errors because these movies were never meant to fit what had happened in the older movies.



the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films
User avatar
jellydonut25
Controller
 
Posts: 18874
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Houston, TX via Buffalo, NY

Postby Legion » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:33 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:
the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films


Thank you, although this is really only true when it comes to the Showa series, since only the thickest of people would try to link the Millennium series together.

I like that several of the Showa entries can work as standalone films with no connection to the films made before. I mean, if continuity is that important to you then you're stuck trying to figure out how Godzilla's wounds from Hedora healed by the time of Gigan. And I don't buy the regeneration nonsense either.
http://legion1979.tumblr.com/

Hello, Nice Warners! - A Thorough Analysis of Every Animaniacs Episode
Legion
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 7303
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:11 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:47 pm

Legion wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films


Thank you, although this is really only true when it comes to the Showa series, since only the thickest of people would try to link the Millennium series together.

I like that several of the Showa entries can work as standalone films with no connection to the films made before. I mean, if continuity is that important to you then you're stuck trying to figure out how Godzilla's wounds from Hedora healed by the time of Gigan. And I don't buy the regeneration nonsense either.
or try reconciling the fact that in Hedorah, Godzilla is a out-and-out hero while in Gigan he's back to at least having the military see him as a threat again (hence why he 'escaped' from monster island) and then he's back to out-and-out hero a movie later in Megalon - did Godzilla perform some sort of shenanigans that caused him to be put into 'Timeout' on monster island between the happenings of Hedorah and Gigan and then after beating Gigan, proved that he'd grown up and wouldn't leave his room a mess anymore??

what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?

let's face it, other than Gojira -> Godzilla Raids Again and the Heisei series, very little continuity was EVER intended in the Godzilla series...sure there's the occasional nod to continuity like in KKvs.G when they talked about "we couldnt have expected him to be stuck in ice forever" or in Ghidrah when they talk about one of the Mothras dying, but seriously - i DARE somebody to tell me how Minya didn't get a day older between the day he was born (in the SIXTIES) during Son of Godzilla, and 1999 in Destroy All Monsters, despite the fact that he ages VISIBLY in SoG alone!!! or how he disappears altogether for 30 years!!!

it's a nice little idea to construct a timeline or whatnot, but c'mon, Minya didn't fall through a dimensional time-warp and he damn sure wasn't cryogenically frozen.
User avatar
jellydonut25
Controller
 
Posts: 18874
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Houston, TX via Buffalo, NY

Postby king_ghidorah » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:50 am

jellydonut25 wrote:
Legion wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films


Thank you, although this is really only true when it comes to the Showa series, since only the thickest of people would try to link the Millennium series together.

I like that several of the Showa entries can work as standalone films with no connection to the films made before. I mean, if continuity is that important to you then you're stuck trying to figure out how Godzilla's wounds from Hedora healed by the time of Gigan. And I don't buy the regeneration nonsense either.
or try reconciling the fact that in Hedorah, Godzilla is a out-and-out hero while in Gigan he's back to at least having the military see him as a threat again (hence why he 'escaped' from monster island) and then he's back to out-and-out hero a movie later in Megalon - did Godzilla perform some sort of shenanigans that caused him to be put into 'Timeout' on monster island between the happenings of Hedorah and Gigan and then after beating Gigan, proved that he'd grown up and wouldn't leave his room a mess anymore??

what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?

let's face it, other than Gojira -> Godzilla Raids Again and the Heisei series, very little continuity was EVER intended in the Godzilla series...sure there's the occasional nod to continuity like in KKvs.G when they talked about "we couldnt have expected him to be stuck in ice forever" or in Ghidrah when they talk about one of the Mothras dying, but seriously - i DARE somebody to tell me how Minya didn't get a day older between the day he was born (in the SIXTIES) during Son of Godzilla, and 1999 in Destroy All Monsters, despite the fact that he ages VISIBLY in SoG alone!!! or how he disappears altogether for 30 years!!!

it's a nice little idea to construct a timeline or whatnot, but c'mon, Minya didn't fall through a dimensional time-warp and he damn sure wasn't cryogenically frozen.



Some good thoughts there Jelly...keep up the good work
User avatar
king_ghidorah
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 9917
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:27 am
Location: Ohio

Postby Returner » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:40 am

Nice film. No wonder why the SFX got an award... only in Japan. Top 15.
Returner
 

Postby zekend01 » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:35 am

King_Ghidorah wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
Legion wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films


Thank you, although this is really only true when it comes to the Showa series, since only the thickest of people would try to link the Millennium series together.

I like that several of the Showa entries can work as standalone films with no connection to the films made before. I mean, if continuity is that important to you then you're stuck trying to figure out how Godzilla's wounds from Hedora healed by the time of Gigan. And I don't buy the regeneration nonsense either.
or try reconciling the fact that in Hedorah, Godzilla is a out-and-out hero while in Gigan he's back to at least having the military see him as a threat again (hence why he 'escaped' from monster island) and then he's back to out-and-out hero a movie later in Megalon - did Godzilla perform some sort of shenanigans that caused him to be put into 'Timeout' on monster island between the happenings of Hedorah and Gigan and then after beating Gigan, proved that he'd grown up and wouldn't leave his room a mess anymore??

what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?

let's face it, other than Gojira -> Godzilla Raids Again and the Heisei series, very little continuity was EVER intended in the Godzilla series...sure there's the occasional nod to continuity like in KKvs.G when they talked about "we couldnt have expected him to be stuck in ice forever" or in Ghidrah when they talk about one of the Mothras dying, but seriously - i DARE somebody to tell me how Minya didn't get a day older between the day he was born (in the SIXTIES) during Son of Godzilla, and 1999 in Destroy All Monsters, despite the fact that he ages VISIBLY in SoG alone!!! or how he disappears altogether for 30 years!!!

it's a nice little idea to construct a timeline or whatnot, but c'mon, Minya didn't fall through a dimensional time-warp and he damn sure wasn't cryogenically frozen.



Some good thoughts there Jelly...keep up the good work


Yeah... Minya. I'm gonna have to take some fan initiative here and just acknowledge that poor Minya was Godzilla's financial and emotional burden...

Minya was developmentally delayed folks.

There. I said it. He WAS fully matured and was getting some Assisted Living care for those 30 years, but he ended up squandering his state money on used CDs at a variety of seedy flea markets. :cry:

It's everybody's problem guys!! This sort of thing is draining the tax payer's wallet! When will the stigma of being developmentally delayed end?? What can WE do about it? :x :x :x








:D
"If you can take the hot lead enema, then you can cast the first stone." - Lenny Bruce
http://www.myspace.com/cretinfunk
http://www.myspace.com/prometheuscomplex
zekend01
Godzilla
 
Posts: 866
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:52 pm
Location: The Abyss

Postby kent » Tue Aug 04, 2009 2:25 pm

I enjoyed the movie when I first bought it on VHS back in 1998. Yeah it seemed weird even then and a bit befuddling, but it was fun.

As I've gotten older, I begin to not think of this movie as the near-spectacle I thought it was when I first saw it. Part of it is due that there was such a huge mass of the fandom for a while that thought this movie was the best thing since Jesus Toast and I couldn't understand why. Yeah, I enjoyed the film but felt it wasn't anything as special as some of these other people thought. Part of my distaste kind of grew from that. That and M-11. I know he's a fan favorite but most of the scenes he's in are absolutely ridiculous even for a person like me. That car chase scene was absurd, his dubbing was horrendous (in fact, much of the dubbing for the movie is bad), and M-11's overall purpose in the movie just didn't need to be. I feel he's a bunch of wasted space.

The actors are okay and the time-traveling incident is convoluted. I remember reading the explanation of it one time and it making since, but the damn thing was so long I haven't been able to remember the specifics since. That is bad when your explanation for time travel has to be pages and pages in length.

The battles are pretty cool and are what keep me posted to the TV. Otherwise, I find this to be near the bottom of the era. It has it's moments of brilliance, but they are few and far between here.
User avatar
kent
Little Godzilla
 
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:14 am

Postby planetxleader » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:06 pm

I too, first saw this back in '98, and to me it was awesome. At that point I hadn't started re-watching the Showa movies in their entirety, and it had been a while since I'd seen an "all-new" Godzilla, so this was a pretty big deal to me.

I just re-watched this last night. Though my general opinion of the series as a whole is low, I thoroughly enjoyed this. Nostalgia may be partly responsible, but the film, to me, is very entertaining. The idea of exploring Godzilla's origins is neat, the build-up to the appearance of the title kaiju works well, and when Godzilla himself does finally show, he attacks Japan relentlessly! Plus, he looks plain awesome here.

True, Suzuki's effects start to visibly deteriorate, but there are some great shots in the bunch, and as a whole the effects are wild and colorful.

...Oh, and Yoshio Tsuchiya is awesome as Shindo. Really the only good role from a Toho veteran in the whole Heisei series. I think in "Bringing Godzilla Down to Size" Tsuchiya actually confesses that this was his favorite role.

As a whole: The last of the "good" Heisei movies. MechaGodzilla II had a decent story, but King Ghidorah was the last solidly entertaining movie of the '90s. Things went downhill fast.
"Vishnu takes on his multi-armed form, and says, "RAAAAAHHHOOO!!!'"
User avatar
planetxleader
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby Tyler E. Martin » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:11 pm

planetxleader wrote:True, Suzuki's effects start to visibly deteriorate, but there are some great shots in the bunch, and as a whole the effects are wild and colorful.


Koichi Kawakita was the effects director for all the Godzilla films from "Biollante" through "Destoroyah," including this one. Kenji Suzuki wasn't in charge of the effects for a Godzilla film until "Godzilla 2000."
Image
User avatar
Tyler E. Martin
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1588
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 4:43 pm
Location: Ministry of the Space

Postby planetxleader » Tue Aug 04, 2009 9:19 pm

Youch, Kawakita, I mean. I knew I got that one wrong! Thanks!
"Vishnu takes on his multi-armed form, and says, "RAAAAAHHHOOO!!!'"
User avatar
planetxleader
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1835
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 11:42 pm
Location: Georgia

Postby Rodanex » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:29 am

Personally, this one has always been a letdown for me. After the masterpieces that were G84 and GvsB, this one just doesn't look as good visually, the story is terribly written, and the score is kind of lackluster. When I first learned about the heisei movies, I found pictures of Mecha-King Ghidorah online as well as summaries of the story, and I had such high expecations for it, especially after having watched the first two heisei films.

Then I finally watched it and was sorely disappointed. Don't get me wrong, i f I ignore the wretched time travel logic, the movie is entertaining and fun in some capacity, just as most Godzilla movies are, but just about every scene with the future people kills me. The sets of the interior of the mothership look atrocious, the jet pack scene looked (and sounded awful)....do I even NEED to mention M-11?

I feel like this one had a lot of wasted potential. In the hands of a more competent director, and if more time had been spent on the special effects, I think this would have been one of the best in the series. As it stands, I think it's only marginally better than GvsSG.

EDIT: In its favor, this movie does have one of the funniest moments in the entire Godzilla series: as Terasawa opens the door to go convince Shindo not to create a new Godzilla (right before the M-11 chase scene), the door he opens has the words "Super Scientific Play Room" written on it.
Rodanex
Godzilla
 
Posts: 762
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:04 pm

Postby TitanoGoji16 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 6:55 am

jellydonut25 wrote:what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?


I've always liked to think that the beach Godzilla was on during the rainstorm in Mechagodzilla was Monster Island, though obviously we'll never know either way.
User avatar
TitanoGoji16
Godzilla
 
Posts: 659
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 4:18 pm

Postby Legion » Sun Aug 22, 2010 11:54 pm

Godzilla vs King Ghidora is such a difficult mixed bag. A lot of the films biggest flaws occur doing the first half of the movie: those ridiculous Dorats, the awful matting of the Mother Ship to the live action scenery, the embarrassing 1944 sequence that can't even be saved by the cool Godzillasaurus costume, the stiff flying King Ghidora model during the jet attack and all that Godawful M-11 stuff. Once Godzila shows up everything picks up considerably. Godzilla's battle with the maser cannons is a great sequence and his battle with Mechaghidora is one of the coolest fights in the Heisei series.

It had been years since I've watched this movie until I put it on earlier this week and it amazes me how divided it is. One half is pretty hard to watch, and the other half is incredible.
http://legion1979.tumblr.com/

Hello, Nice Warners! - A Thorough Analysis of Every Animaniacs Episode
Legion
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 7303
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:11 pm
Location: Long Island, NY

Postby Gamzilla » Mon Aug 23, 2010 12:48 am

TitanoGoji16 wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?


I've always liked to think that the beach Godzilla was on during the rainstorm in Mechagodzilla was Monster Island, though obviously we'll never know either way.


I thought the same thing, I also thought it was on Monster Island where Anguirus appeared in the very beginning of the movie....but thats another topic
User avatar
Gamzilla
Godzilla Jr.
 
Posts: 208
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2003 3:15 pm
Location: San Diego

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:26 pm

Gamzilla wrote:
TitanoGoji16 wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:what about the idea that Gigan introduces us to the concept of monster island in the Showa timeline and then Mechagodzilla and Terror of, COMPLETELY drop the idea?


I've always liked to think that the beach Godzilla was on during the rainstorm in Mechagodzilla was Monster Island, though obviously we'll never know either way.


I thought the same thing, I also thought it was on Monster Island where Anguirus appeared in the very beginning of the movie....but thats another topic
still, the point is that continuity was only intended in the Heisei series and a handful of the early Showa films...I'd say somewhere around Sea Monster, continuity was thrown out the window completely


still, discussions of continuity in the Heisei timeline do get complicated by this movie, but if you've ever read Keith's article on SFJ about it, it makes sense and is a pretty good read.
Gills.

My DVD/Blu-Ray Collection:
http://jellydonut25.filmaf.com/owned
User avatar
jellydonut25
Controller
 
Posts: 18874
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 1:18 am
Location: Houston, TX via Buffalo, NY

Postby Dai » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:41 pm

GvKG is what I'd call a glorious mess. Yes, the plot is convoluted and has some goofy elements, but it's entertaining. More importantly, for all it's twisting, the plot keeps firmly on track far better than GvBio. That film's greatest weakness was it's lack of focus leading to each plot strand feeling like reels spliced together from three different movies (monster vs monster plot, monster vs military superweapon plot, human espionage plot). GvKG has a strong through-line, regardless of its continuity tangles.
User avatar
Dai
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1061
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:07 pm
Location: UK

Postby Benjamin Haines » Mon Aug 23, 2010 3:53 pm

Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah is one of the most bizarre Godzilla films of all time from beginning to end, and I love every minute of it. It would make for a great triple feature sandwiched between Godzilla vs. Hedorah and Godzilla: Final Wars.
Image
User avatar
Benjamin Haines
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 5487
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

Postby ryuuseipro » Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:29 pm

Legion wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:
the Heisei series really F'd us with the whole 'continuity' thing. It made people start looking for it in places that it shouldn't be, like the Showa and Millenium films


Thank you, although this is really only true when it comes to the Showa series, since only the thickest of people would try to link the Millennium series together.

I like that several of the Showa entries can work as standalone films with no connection to the films made before. I mean, if continuity is that important to you then you're stuck trying to figure out how Godzilla's wounds from Hedora healed by the time of Gigan. And I don't buy the regeneration nonsense either.


Oh, I'm sure the regeneration thing was around, even in the same movie. It just wasn't so in your face or blatantly explained. Mechagodzilla did a number on Godzilla, and he came back better and stronger for Round 2!
-John Cassidy
Richmond, VA
http://ryuuseipro.livejournal.com/

"The monster a child knows best and is most concerned with [is] the monster he feels or fears himself to be." -Bruno Bettelheim
User avatar
ryuuseipro
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1730
Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 7:56 pm
Location: Richmond, VA

Postby Benjamin Haines » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:35 pm

I think it's always been implied that Godzilla is very resilient and heals quickly, it just wasn't plainly described in the Showa era like it was in later films.
Image
User avatar
Benjamin Haines
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 5487
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

Postby Kaiju Nexus » Mon Aug 23, 2010 9:46 pm

There are a lot of things I really love about GvsKG, and a few things I don't.

I'll just list them by pros and cons (and mehs)...

PROS

- GREAT Ifukube score.
- Amazing Godzilla suit. One of my favorites
- Great Ghidorah design. Really imposing
- Mecha-King Ghidorah. I love this concept and it was done well, imo.
- Special effects. REALLY great destruction scenes and fights.

MEH

- Godzilla's origin. Interesting concept that I could buy easier if execution was better.

CONS

- Time travel. The Heisei series was setting up a grounded, realistic atmosphere up to this point. This concept seemed like a jump.
- UFO, M-11, futurians. I enjoyed this stuff in its own right, but it all feels out of place in a film following Biollante.
Image

"Because, if we didn't debate over silly nonsense, we wouldn't be fans. :) "

- pocketmego
User avatar
Kaiju Nexus
Heisei Godzilla
 
Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:57 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Postby MekaGojira3k » Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:04 pm

Benjamin Haines wrote:I think it's always been implied that Godzilla is very resilient and heals quickly, it just wasn't plainly described in the Showa era like it was in later films.


I think a lot of that had to do with the nature of scifi during those eras. Heisei Godzilla was always about trying to make up logic for their whole series which is why so much focused on it. G2k explained some more because it was a plot point.
"We Can't Stop Here, This is Bat Country!"
Check out the Gojicast, because if you won't...who will?
Image
User avatar
MekaGojira3k
Millennium Godzilla
 
Posts: 18288
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 11:13 am
Location: Ky, USA

Postby Benjamin Haines » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:17 am

From CNN:
Twin Tale: Rising China, Japan's setting sun

Japan's bubble burst 20 years ago and has remained stagnant. People in her age group, says Toshiko, have never known a thriving Japanese economy.


It's funny to think that Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah was made about 20 years ago, suggesting that Japan might grow into the ultimate world economic superpower.
Image
User avatar
Benjamin Haines
Meltdown Godzilla
 
Posts: 5487
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:38 pm
Location: North Carolina

PreviousNext

Return to The Heisei Era: 1984-1995

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest