TALKBACK#18: Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah

[briizilla]

[Gman2887]

I'm trying to imagine watching Monster Zero for something other than the monsters.

When I was 8 I didn't like that movie because there was such sparse "M0nStAr Act0!N!11!!" and now it's one of my favorite Godzilla movies, but it's literally for the characters. I love Glenn, Fuji and Namikawa. They make the movie for me and are the characters that stick out the most outside of the original film. The special effects are awesome, to be sure, but it's actually not a movie I watch for straight up monster action. Like at all.

[jellydonut25]

[Gman2887]

Funny you mention a "holy trinity" of sorts. I've always looked at Mothra vs. Godzilla, Ghidorah: The three Headed Monster and Monster Zero as something of a trilogy... "Holy Showa Trinity" might be the correct title for it.

[MekaGojira3k]

[Inferior Rodan]

[O.Supreme]

I just think we as fans should avoid extremes in any way shape or form, and just acknowledge that we come in "all kinds" - In really assesing what makes me enjoy Godzilla, I can honestly say, even as old as I am, it is probably 70% because of the monster action. In a recent thread on another forum, I admitted to probably not knowing a dozen actors, directors, prodcuers, FX people on these films from memory. That being said however. I'm not going to say the human cast is irrelevant. I also acknowledge that a great number of fans truly enjoy their performances and find them to be integral to these films. I fully acknowledge that I am in a minority when I say I would really enjoy an "all kaiju" Godzilla film, after all DAM is my favorite. I can honestly say that upon pondering for a long time, there really isn't a human character I really care for or identify with with outside of the original. I dont think that makes me callous or heartless, just expressing an opinion, and again I know I'm in the minority. Still I acknowledge that human actors can make a Godzilla movie horrible (FW for example) Oddly enough however... when watching a Toku show like the original Ultraman, I enjoy almost all the human cast on that show...go figure...

Not trying to take sides in this argument, but just trying to get people to acknowledge that the range of reasons for why we like these films is incredibly diverse. I do appreciate what the actors try to accomplish. I listen to fan commenataries by Keith Aiken, Ed G. etc... as they prattle off numerous names of all kinds of persons involved with these films, and numerous other projects they are attached to, and I listen in awe. I wish I could remember a fracton of the factoids they present. Thankfully the internet has allowed most people to at least have access to some referrence material, but as I slowly expand my knowledge as a fan, I dont think anyone who views these films for the simple "city stomping, monster brawling" pleasures they are should be looked down upon, but at the same time said people should acknowledge the reason THEY like these films is not the same reason EVERYONE likes these films.

[eabaker]

Wow, I kinda wish I'd been around for this whole mess as it happened...

Here's my $.02 on the subject, anyway...

The very best of these movies are about what happens when human lives are affected by the presence of these monsters. That makes both the mosnters and the human element equally important - they enrich each other. A monster knocking down a building may make for a cool image, but its real resonance comes when we know something about the people in that building.

The actors are a major part of what makes the monsters effective. Even if, consciously, you're just watching it for the mosnters, subconsciously the actors are informing your responses to those monsters.

[MekaGojira3k]

[eabaker]

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[H-Man]

[jellydonut25]

[Rody]

I feel I could use a refresher on the 90's films, so I watched Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah today. I am now of the opinion that, under a better writer and a better director , Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah could have been a solid finale to a Heisei Godzilla trilogy.
There are two reasons I think this. The first has to do with the time-travel plot. As sloppily written as it is, I still like it for how unique it is for the franchise overall, and how over-the top it is compared to RoG and Biollante in particular. I feel the science-fiction elements quickly escalated in style and absurdity through these three films, reaching an absolute zenith with GvsKG. What better way to end the story than with an all-out bang? More importantly, though, the time-loop element of Godzilla's birth is remarkable. As Robert Hood wrote in his Man and Super Monster article, "Godzilla is inevitable". Throughout these first three Heisei films, the Japanese give everything they can to find a way of eliminating Godzilla - but whether they want him or not, the Japanese simply cannot get rid of Godzilla (once again, the time-loop plot is the zenith of this theme). Whether deliberate or not, I wonder if this makes for a strong allegory to Godzilla's nuclear origins, and the ever-present (if dormant) danger of such weaponry.
The second reason, which I like even more, is the dynamic between Godzilla and King Ghidorah. I find it fascinating how the two classic, arch-nemesis monsters keep switching roles in the film, alternating between villain and hero. If you recall, this has actually been happening all along. Back when Ghidorah was first introduced in 1964, he took Godzilla's place as the villain monster; thus Godzilla began his transformation into the heroic defender. I feel that GvsKG inadvertently becomes symbolic of that relationship between the two enemy monsters.*

In my opinion, if Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah had accentuated these two ideas - as well as been more coherently written in general - then it would have made for a grand climax to the Heisei storyline, featuring Godzilla's ultimate defeat(?) by, and simultaneous victory over, his most iconic nemesis. As it stands, however, it's a fun, but merely decent film that doesn't stand out from its contemporaries as well as it could.


Some random other thoughts of mine:

I had forgotten how many random or redundant lines there were in the dubbed dialogue. There were probably a dozen times when I was thinking either, "that needed to be said why??", or, "Yes, that was made clear when the FIRST GUY said it, thank you".

I had also forgotten how good the Godzillasaurus suit looked - not to mention how goofy his killing of the soldiers appeared. You know what that sequence needed? Stan Winston. (to dream...)

I find it amusing that Toho would use Gamera's roar to represent one of their own monsters - and a version of Godzilla, no less.

Emi is a pretty dumb character - but her outfit through most of the movie is even dumber.

M-11's speed running is one instance of cheesy effects I actually don't mind, because it looks so funny.

I like the scene when Godzilla falls through the "floor" of the city. That's not something we see very often.

The Tokyo set for the climax was really cool. Those buildings were enormous!

That's all I can think of for now. I did enjoy this movie still, in spite of its flaws.

*

[Pkmatrix]

Huh...like the GvM'92 review, I thought I'd posted this both here and at TK. I guess not? No idea why I posted these things over at TK.

In August, I rewatched this one for the first time in about 10 years. I remember liking the movie as a kid, but more recently my feelings toward it had soured. Biollante has always been my favorite Godzilla movie, you see, so when I realized that the change in tone started with this one well... In the interest of fairness, though, I sat with it again with an open mind.

My feelings toward it now are...mixed.

As a kid, I remember being bored by Act 1, enjoying the 1944 sequence in Act 2, and really only getting into the film once Godzilla made his entrance. Looking at it as an adult, though, I think the strongest part of the movie is the first act. The beginning and early parts are pretty well done, IMO, nicely interweaving Terasawa's investigation and figuring out Godzilla's origin with the UFO plot. In a way, it feels similar to how Biollante's Act 1 is about Godzilla but doesn't feature him...only less exciting, because I don't find the UFO plot as interesting as the ANEB/spy stuff.

Things start to unravel as soon as the time travel elements are introduced. Its also about this point that the unevenness of the FX starts to become apparent...I think much could be fixed if the movie were trimmed down to remove ineffective FX. For instance, I would've cut the fight between KG and the jets entirely, and the Dorats looked AWFUL.

(It also occurred to me on this viewing how OBVIOUS it is that Godzilla was never erased...the characters practically STATE it! It seemed like the only ones in the movie suggesting Godzilla got erased and recreated are the bad guys, and it seemed pretty clear to me that they never caught on that their plan failed.)

While we do get more action after Godzilla arrives, a lot of it feels so...I dunno, bland? The movie makes the same mistake as Mothra vs. Godzilla: it ends the human plot WAY too soon, which results in the cast having no purpose for the rest of the film. The only ones given anything to do after the villains are offed are Emi and Shindo, while everyone else watches things play out on TV screens elsewhere.

On the plus side, Godzilla looks GREAT here, IMO. Unfortunately, some of the sequences they stick him in...not so much. Some people criticized the miniatures in GvB vs those in G85, but the Sapporo sequence is a MUCH larger step down IMO. WTH happened? I grant that the Shinjuku set is very impressive, though, in scale.

In the end I did enjoy it, although it's nowhere near either '80s movie. Lots of good ideas, but not executed all that well. This one may be salvageable via a fan edit, though...a project for another day!

[heroforhirerob]

[Dr Kain]

After Godzilla’s return in the 80’s, Toho decided to follow up the phenomenal “Godzilla vs. Biollante” with an update to one of Godzilla’s most fan favorite villain, King Ghidorah. Ghidorah thus turned from an “out of this world” type of monster and into an “out of this time” one. Wait… WHAT?!

The plot to “Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah” is a very oddball one. It replaced the space aliens plot found in the Showa era, but did so with time travelers from two hundred years in the future. As I said, it is odd. On one hand, it was nice to get rid of the alien stuff to keep everything more grounded. On the other, does it really make that big of a difference? Nevertheless, there are people from the year 2204 and they have come to save Japan from Godzilla by dumping his body into the sea before he became Godzilla. Instead of going from the year 2204 to the year 1944 though, they for some reason need to go to 1992 to bring people that live during that era to 1944. I’m not really sure why that is, but at this point, you might as well just roll with it. They go back in time, transfer the Godzillasaurus back to 1992 but leave these three creatures known as Dorats behind that end up becoming King Ghidorah. Godzilla still manages to be born (not that any of his past events are eradicated from history), only this time, it created a bigger meaner monster than ever before. The two monster fight, Godzilla wins, King Ghidorah is brought back from the future as Mecha King Ghidorah, and is destroyed while temporarily stopping Godzilla’s rampage. Oh yeah, and Terasawa finds out that the girl he had a love interest with in this movie for a little while is actually a descendant of his before she goes back to the future. Oh those Japanese and their incessant need to make things creepy.

Regardless, who the heck came up with this plot? It just does not make sense no matter how you look at it. If they are from the future, you would think they would know that the Godzilla in 1992 is a completely different Godzilla from the one that rampaged Japan in 1954. Or maybe it was forgotten that there were two different monsters by that point in time, as it could be that revelation was lost in time. Also, how is it that M11 is able to be reprogrammed so easily by Emmy? Both Wilson and Grenchko already know they cannot trust her, so why would they even allow her to do maintenance on him? Why would M11 even let her do maintenance on him when he knew what was going on? Also, does Shindo have a fountain of youth in his office? He looks the exact same age in 1944 that he does in 1992.

Of course, ignoring some of what I said above, this could also be the most intelligent Godzilla movie since the original. Could it really be that the Godzillasaurus they sent into the sea in 1944 was not the original, but in fact, was the reason Godzilla returned in 1984? When you think about it that way, Toho put everything they needed in order right from the get go without the viewer even realizing it.

The characters of the movie are decent, but nothing memorable outside of the poor acting from Wilson, M11, and Grenchko. It is like they wanted to find the worst American actors they could just so they were believable scumbags (in fact, if I recall, they had the worst voices in the English dub of the movie). It is interesting to have a guy that wants to write a book about Godzilla as a lead, but isn’t giving him a copy of his own book from the future cheating? He no longer has to think of what to write as it is right there in front of him. Fortunately, there is Miki, who brings on the continuity factor of the movie and we are starting to learn about the established Godzilla Team, or as they will soon be known as, the Godzilla Force. In fact, taken as a standalone movie, this movie is pretty bad from a story telling point of view. However, once you take it as the middle to the story, it is a vast improvement as this movie pretty much leads into the last three films of the Heisei era. Finally, I just state at how hilariously bad it is to have that entire conversation between the US officer and “Commander Spielberg.”

The costume used for Godzilla is the same one we had in his previous entry, and it still looks as menacing now as it did back then. There are no complaints to be had. I also love that they even had hi blink a few times during the movie. The costume budget easily went to the updates to Ghidorah. First, we have a nice updated design from the Showa one. He is big, bulky, and his heads no longer appear as if they are going to get tangled up with each other. On the other hand, they also do not feel as organic as they did during the Showa era, so it is a win-lose situation every time. Mecha Ghidorah looks good though, especially since the movie showed up the battle damage Ghidorah had received in his battle with Godzilla. It gives the use of Ghidorah some originality from what was seen throughout the Showa era. In fact, despite the convoluted origins, I do like this version of Ghidorah a lot. He might not be my favorite incarnation of him (honestly, I cannot say which version is, as that changes with my mood), but to get an update of this magnitude is nicely done. The effects during the movie are a mixed bag though. The battle damage to Ghidorah is nice to see, as stated moments ago, but the M11 and other android effects are just so laughably bad. There is just nothing positive that can really be said between the M11 running and jet pack flying scenes. They are all terrible.

There is a lot that can be said about this movie, as it is one that is convoluted, but at the same time, might not be so depending on how your thinking of overly complex time traveling plot lines are. I still have no idea why the Futurians needed to go back to 1992 just to go back to 1944, but what we do get is a fairly entertaining movie with some great monster battles in it. For that, I am giving “Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah” a 7/10. Lastly, it is so nice to hear updates to Ifukube’s themes, especially the Ghidorah one and the piano one.

[jellydonut25]

I just find the first 40 minutes or so to be extremely BORING.

[Dr Kain]

[Pkmatrix]

[Gman2887]

[eabaker]