Kong Did Win

[el-brazo]

@kaijubringer:

> Hence, logically he cannot be said to have been "defeated"
> by the larvae in the SENSE OF BEING KILLED OR CHASED AWAY
> PERMANENTLY FROM JAPAN. That's all I'm saying. I have no
> problem with saying both Kong and the larvae temporarily
> neutralized Godzilla as a threat. They won, in that sense.
> But that's not the same as an unqualified, permanent, full,
> and final victory.

I agree with that. What I wrote to you was meant in a more general sense. There is a certain danger about relying on sequels as they often try to update a certain story at any cost. As most Showa movies are very loosely connected to each other, the movies should be seen as individual adventures of Godzilla. Of course, in this case the sequels show that Godzilla was not killed and there can be no doubt about that. However - and I do not mean you here -, there are obviously fans who are so obsessed with the desire to establish the history of an ever victorious Godzilla that they would accept any interpretation as long as they like to hear it. That's really puzzling.

[Khandejifer]

YAAWWWWNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This thread gets VERY boring after a while...

[el-brazo]

@ebirahsmeg1:

> And I agree, those endings for both these films are
> not that ambiguous....Godzilla, as much as we may hate
> to admit it, was defeated in both of those films(or at
> least tied), but naturally was not killed....

I don't have a problem with "my" Godzilla being beaten sometimes. Live often sucks, even if you're the toughest monster of the universe.

[Gendou]

Seemed like a tie to me.

[anguirus23]

[DannyBeane]

Kong was clearly the good kaiju, so plot armor dictates he won. He wouldn't have gotten he electrical supercharge powerup otherwise

[O.Supreme]

Funny this gets resurrected, just 2 days after watching the documentary "Long Live the King" on Amazon (which is awesome btw...). And even though Toho's two films are not remarked on in a very positive light, one of the commentators says of KK vs Godzilla "It ends in a draw", and I yelled out loud ;"THANK YOU!"...now I know my own dissenting opinion, like his is not popular, but I'd just rather go by what I see on screen. Watch the end sometime with no volume, even with a group of people who have never seen it before if possible, and ask them objectively who won? Funny that of all the kaiju films, this is the only one that Toho feels the need to come out and tell you who won...that in itself should say something.

Again I'm not a Godzilla apologist. Godzilla lost in Mothra vs Godzilla...I think its dumb, but its as plain as day, unlike KK vs. Godzilla.

Also the end of KK vs Godzilla is the exact same ending as in Monster Zero. Someone asks if Godzilla and Rodan are dead to which is replied "cant be...they're too tough"... So the question is the same for both films...Was Kong/King Ghidora A) "fleeing in defeat" in both instances, or were they B) simply "leaving" after defeating their enemy?

[Benjamin Haines]

[lhb412]

^Magnificent post! Ton of great points, and a rather definitive summation of the whole shebang!

[DannyBeane]

[jellydonut25]

I always viewed it as a tie.

[GFan]

You know, the more I've thought about it, Kong most likely died of thirst/exhaustion on his way back to Faro Island.

[O.Supreme]

[canofhumdingers]

Because it did an excellent job summarizing the argument for Kong's victory in a clear and rather compelling manner.

Personally, I always felt it was a draw. But Ben has convinced me to side with those who say Kong was clearly the winner. So it DID change someone's mind.

At this point, between Toho's official summary to the fact that the whole "alternate ending where Godzilla wins" myth wouldn't even exist if the actual ending wasn't clearly a victory for the big ape, I don't see why anyone would stil, call it a draw.

[jellydonut25]

[lhb412]

^But wasn't the original draft for Sea Monster a direct sequel to KK vs. G? That would mean that in the mind of writer Shinichi Sekizawa Kong stopped on another island for a multi-year nap on his way back to Faro.

[O.Supreme]

^Using the monster and being a sequel are two completely different things. All the Godzilla movies in the Showa era are pretty independent (some less than others), but although fans have *kind of* made a through line over the years, they are for the most part all stand alone films. (I'd say MvsG and GTTHM are closely connected as well as MG & TOMG, but other than that...all pretty much stand alone films)

So if Toho has all this press saying KK *won* in KK vs G. Then who do they say won in Astro Monster? or in War of the Gargantuas? I guess I need to be told since my own logic based on what is obviously seen isn't good enough .

[Benjamin Haines]

[The Giant Pacific Octopus]

[O.Supreme]

Of course it's all "silly" in some regard. But I dont think the fight between KK & Godzilla is *out of universe* or anything. Like Mohammad Ali vs Superman. Mohammad Ali won. Ok, fine ,whatever, it was just a silly promotional comic basically.

But KK vs Godzilla is definitely *in universe*, so while it is silly and fun in and of itself, it's more like a Hulk vs Thor, or a Superman vs Doomsday fight, and less like those out of universe examples we've sighted.

Also on that note. I keep hearing about how great a fight between Goku from Dragonball vs Superman would be. I guess for the modern generation Goku is kind of like their Superman?...But because I'm not a fan of DB, I really wouldn't care one way or the other, it's not something I want or need to see happen.


Final Thought- Although the prevailing myth of Toho filming 2 different outcomes for the original KK vs Godzilla was finally squashed by access to the internet many years ago...what if LP was ballsy enough to film 2 different endings for their film, and you had no idea which ending you were going to see... Kind of like they did with the film Clue way back when

[lhb412]

[jellydonut25]

I could see Gamera "winning" but at TREMENDOUS (life-taking, even) cost.

That'd probably be the furthest I'd go, what with Gamera being a hero always except once.

[mbozzo]

Of course, Kong won in this movie. The fact that Godzilla didn't come up didn't mean that he has died. It mean that he lost and may have went somewhere else to recover until his appearance in the next movie. That's what I think.

[O.Supreme]

[canofhumdingers]