What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon May 05, 2014 11:31 am

^Ummm...what?
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby SpaceMal » Mon May 05, 2014 12:02 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:^Ummm...what?


Could you be a little more specific?
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon May 05, 2014 12:50 pm

SpaceMal wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:^Ummm...what?


Could you be a little more specific?

Yes:


Ummmm...what the hell are you talking about?

Seriously, Minilla 2? ASG? Continuity? I swear, I can't stand this notion that these films have some sort of continuity that goes through ALL of them.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby MekaGojira3k » Mon May 05, 2014 1:10 pm

I'm so confused, what is Heisei Minya?
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby SpaceMal » Mon May 05, 2014 3:14 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Yes:


Ummmm...what the hell are you talking about?

Seriously, Minilla 2? ASG? Continuity? I swear, I can't stand this notion that these films have some sort of continuity that goes through ALL of them.


Well I'm not sure what to tell you about that, because they do. I don't like the way sharp cheddar tastes, but that doesn't mean I get to stop sharp cheddar from existing. Also, if you don't care about continuity, why on Earth are you posting in a thread specifically about continuity?

So I'm a little confused here because you asked a... question? I presumed you did so with the intent of having it answered, because to think otherwise is kind of illogical. Yet in your reply you tell me 1. the specific things you didn't understand and 2. that you don't actually want an answer. So... what do you want me to do here? Do you care or not?

What I'll do is just sort of answer you here, and then later if you decide that you don't care, then you can... you know, go and don't care about it somewhere else, and then maybe if someone else has the same questions as you and DOES care, then I won't have wasted my time. I hope.

So "Minilla 2" would mean, like, the second Minilla. I don't know how much clearer than that I can be, especially since my last two posts in this thread where pointed directly at such a topic, so I've been over it twice. As such, I don't really know what it is that you didn't understand that I haven't already mentioned. Minilla appears in Destroy All Monster (that's DAM for short) which takes place in the year 1999. Minilla's only previous appearance in that timeline at this point (1968) was in Son of Godzilla, which presumably takes place the same year it was produced, 1967. This means that we have a span of 32 years where Minilla is unchanged. 32 years is not an insignificant amount of time, especially for a single animal. So this means that something's wrong here, something happened to Minilla or it's another Minilla or something, but it's definitely not what it seems like at face value. The problem sorts itself out in "A Space Godzilla," (this is what ASG refers to) a short story serialized in the Japanese Star Log magazine in 1979. Famous for being the basis of an unfinished Godzilla movie, and also being really weird, it tells the story of the Showa Godzilla (if you'll recall, the subject of this very thread) and his ultimate fate. This is where we get the aforementioned "going back to his home planet" mention, as this is exactly what happens. It's this whole thing I'm not really going to get into now, but the point is that the story's continuity is that of the Showa films (however, not the other way around), and Godzilla leaves Earth in it. Which means Minilla is all alone. This explains perfectly why in DAM Minilla seems to have not aged a single day: because that's not Minilla, Minilla's actually the Godzilla in DAM. When I mentioned that in my first post, I said that it "should be obvious" because I had assumed that no one seriously thought that 32 year old Minilla and 32 hour year old Minilla looked exactly the same. You know, because that's completely absurd.

The Showa films have a rough continuity running through them, yes. The Godzilla series keeps it mostly consistent, and some issues arise from the inclusion of other films, but overall there is a kind of "background" continuity where all the Toho sci-fi or fantasy films, particularly those with monsters in them, are considered fair game for inclusion in a later episode. Most of the time this is settled with a "and then there's another one," and sometimes certain aspects are retconed or even just ignored altogether. The reasoning behind this is pretty... well I was going to say obvious but I guess I shouldn't be quite that bold. Having a "loose canon" allows the filmmakers the best of both worlds: they can feel free to craft their stories without a need for fixating on connections to other films while at the same time letting them pick up plot threads and characters when convenient. Sort of a "it's relevant when I say it is" kind of thing. The affect this has is to make the exact events of previous films somewhat of a non-issue, instead using what it needs to tell the current story.

Gorath is a great example of what I'm talking about. The story takes place between 1977 and 1982, but was made in 1962. In it we see a space station that features in War in Space, a movie about Gotengo, which first appeared in Atragon, where it fights Manda, who appears in Destroy All Monsters, which in the first draft included Maguma, demonstrating that Gorath's events weren't immune from the "background continuity" idea of the time. Also in Gorath, the Moon is destroyed... so, you know, there's that. But ultimately it's not important because Gorath's events have nothing to do with DAM, so you're really just meant to ignore inconsistencies. It doesn't mean the two movies don't occupy the same universe, it just means that things are slightly different owing to what movie you're watching at the time. The OVERALL timeline, from G54 to War in Space has issues with itself, but it's all still meant to occupy the same fictional head space.

A Space Godzilla does this as well. Godzilla being an alien doesn't really make any sense when you look back at the continuity with rigid expectations, but you're not meant to, you're meant to gloss over the parts of the timeline that contradict it in order to let that particular story shine. So in ASG's version of the Showa series, Godzilla returns to his home planet just as Poochy did, and this solves the problem of DAM's Minilla.

I understand that if you were raised on Star Trek or something where continuity was strict and rigid and absolute that this is kind of a difficult concept to grasp, and I can respect that. However not everything in the world is going to follow those same rules, and different fictional settings have their own ideas about how things work, and you can't really judge, say, Yog-Sothothery "canon" by the rigid levels of canonicity that Star Wars uses. They don't mix, they aren't related, and they aren't trying to do the same thing with their methods of storytelling. The Showa Tohoverse is a timeline of stories that interact with each other when it's convenient who all share a universe together. Again, you don't have to like it, but not liking it is not the same thing as it not existing.

Oh, and also when I say "Heisei Minilla" I meant in regards to continuity and not the Heisei series, sorry if that's confusing. If you're still confused, and this strikes me as odd but I know there's still people out there who haven't gotten the word yet, I'm talking about Minilla from GFW, which was written as a sequel to GvsD, had direct continuity references removed by the director, but kept in a reference during the title sequence where the GFW Godzilla is still implied to be Junior. GFW has no ties to any other film beyond that one bit during the credits, so the only possible link it still has to an established timeline is the Heisei series. It can still be considered ambiguous, I suppose, so if you want to just pretend it's completely stand alone that's fine too. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to actively remove context from a story but I guess it takes all kinds.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby Jorzilla » Mon May 05, 2014 3:51 pm

There is no connection between the Showa series and the Heisei series (and it is a fact that there is no connection between Final Wars and Godzilla vs. Destroyah). This is confirmed by Toho itself. Any mental Olympics that you pain yourself through to create a singular continuity is just a fan theory, and is not going to be widely accepted. If you are actually interested in this type of fan-fiction, please check out Matt Frank's work (before IDW) for Godzilla-Neo, which does just this. However it has to strip out a lot of the elements that are contradictory (particularly Godzilla not being seen for 30 years at the start of the Return of Godzilla).

If you continue to defend this position that these movies are connected, you are going to get laughed out of here.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby DannyBeane » Mon May 05, 2014 6:40 pm

SpaceMal wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:Yes:


Ummmm...what the hell are you talking about?

Seriously, Minilla 2? ASG? Continuity? I swear, I can't stand this notion that these films have some sort of continuity that goes through ALL of them.


Well I'm not sure what to tell you about that, because they do. I don't like the way sharp cheddar tastes, but that doesn't mean I get to stop sharp cheddar from existing. Also, if you don't care about continuity, why on Earth are you posting in a thread specifically about continuity?

So I'm a little confused here because you asked a... question? I presumed you did so with the intent of having it answered, because to think otherwise is kind of illogical. Yet in your reply you tell me 1. the specific things you didn't understand and 2. that you don't actually want an answer. So... what do you want me to do here? Do you care or not?

What I'll do is just sort of answer you here, and then later if you decide that you don't care, then you can... you know, go and don't care about it somewhere else, and then maybe if someone else has the same questions as you and DOES care, then I won't have wasted my time. I hope.

So "Minilla 2" would mean, like, the second Minilla. I don't know how much clearer than that I can be, especially since my last two posts in this thread where pointed directly at such a topic, so I've been over it twice. As such, I don't really know what it is that you didn't understand that I haven't already mentioned. Minilla appears in Destroy All Monster (that's DAM for short) which takes place in the year 1999. Minilla's only previous appearance in that timeline at this point (1968) was in Son of Godzilla, which presumably takes place the same year it was produced, 1967. This means that we have a span of 32 years where Minilla is unchanged. 32 years is not an insignificant amount of time, especially for a single animal. So this means that something's wrong here, something happened to Minilla or it's another Minilla or something, but it's definitely not what it seems like at face value. The problem sorts itself out in "A Space Godzilla," (this is what ASG refers to) a short story serialized in the Japanese Star Log magazine in 1979. Famous for being the basis of an unfinished Godzilla movie, and also being really weird, it tells the story of the Showa Godzilla (if you'll recall, the subject of this very thread) and his ultimate fate. This is where we get the aforementioned "going back to his home planet" mention, as this is exactly what happens. It's this whole thing I'm not really going to get into now, but the point is that the story's continuity is that of the Showa films (however, not the other way around), and Godzilla leaves Earth in it. Which means Minilla is all alone. This explains perfectly why in DAM Minilla seems to have not aged a single day: because that's not Minilla, Minilla's actually the Godzilla in DAM. When I mentioned that in my first post, I said that it "should be obvious" because I had assumed that no one seriously thought that 32 year old Minilla and 32 hour year old Minilla looked exactly the same. You know, because that's completely absurd.

The Showa films have a rough continuity running through them, yes. The Godzilla series keeps it mostly consistent, and some issues arise from the inclusion of other films, but overall there is a kind of "background" continuity where all the Toho sci-fi or fantasy films, particularly those with monsters in them, are considered fair game for inclusion in a later episode. Most of the time this is settled with a "and then there's another one," and sometimes certain aspects are retconed or even just ignored altogether. The reasoning behind this is pretty... well I was going to say obvious but I guess I shouldn't be quite that bold. Having a "loose canon" allows the filmmakers the best of both worlds: they can feel free to craft their stories without a need for fixating on connections to other films while at the same time letting them pick up plot threads and characters when convenient. Sort of a "it's relevant when I say it is" kind of thing. The affect this has is to make the exact events of previous films somewhat of a non-issue, instead using what it needs to tell the current story.

Gorath is a great example of what I'm talking about. The story takes place between 1977 and 1982, but was made in 1962. In it we see a space station that features in War in Space, a movie about Gotengo, which first appeared in Atragon, where it fights Manda, who appears in Destroy All Monsters, which in the first draft included Maguma, demonstrating that Gorath's events weren't immune from the "background continuity" idea of the time. Also in Gorath, the Moon is destroyed... so, you know, there's that. But ultimately it's not important because Gorath's events have nothing to do with DAM, so you're really just meant to ignore inconsistencies. It doesn't mean the two movies don't occupy the same universe, it just means that things are slightly different owing to what movie you're watching at the time. The OVERALL timeline, from G54 to War in Space has issues with itself, but it's all still meant to occupy the same fictional head space.

A Space Godzilla does this as well. Godzilla being an alien doesn't really make any sense when you look back at the continuity with rigid expectations, but you're not meant to, you're meant to gloss over the parts of the timeline that contradict it in order to let that particular story shine. So in ASG's version of the Showa series, Godzilla returns to his home planet just as Poochy did, and this solves the problem of DAM's Minilla.

I understand that if you were raised on Star Trek or something where continuity was strict and rigid and absolute that this is kind of a difficult concept to grasp, and I can respect that. However not everything in the world is going to follow those same rules, and different fictional settings have their own ideas about how things work, and you can't really judge, say, Yog-Sothothery "canon" by the rigid levels of canonicity that Star Wars uses. They don't mix, they aren't related, and they aren't trying to do the same thing with their methods of storytelling. The Showa Tohoverse is a timeline of stories that interact with each other when it's convenient who all share a universe together. Again, you don't have to like it, but not liking it is not the same thing as it not existing.

Oh, and also when I say "Heisei Minilla" I meant in regards to continuity and not the Heisei series, sorry if that's confusing. If you're still confused, and this strikes me as odd but I know there's still people out there who haven't gotten the word yet, I'm talking about Minilla from GFW, which was written as a sequel to GvsD, had direct continuity references removed by the director, but kept in a reference during the title sequence where the GFW Godzilla is still implied to be Junior. GFW has no ties to any other film beyond that one bit during the credits, so the only possible link it still has to an established timeline is the Heisei series. It can still be considered ambiguous, I suppose, so if you want to just pretend it's completely stand alone that's fine too. I can't imagine why anyone would choose to actively remove context from a story but I guess it takes all kinds.

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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby tbeasley » Mon May 05, 2014 7:49 pm

Mal these are the official Toho Godzilla timelines...

Showa - Godzilla (1954) to Terror of Mechagodzilla (1975). Technically Destroy All Monsters (1968) would be the final film though with it taking place in 1999.

Heisei - Return of Godzilla (1984) ignores all the original sequels and takes place 30 years after Godzilla, starting a new series that would end in 1995 with Godzilla vs. Destoroyah.

The Millennium series is tricky but once you watch the films it should be apparent they make a point to be (more or less) standalone stories -

Godzilla 2000 doesn't exactly reference the original but Godzilla is already established in the world and has been around to some time.
Megaguirus outright references 54, only the Oxygen Destroy wasn't used against him, and he resurfaces now and again to feed on sources of energy.
GMK is another sequel to 54, this time with a mysticism angle to Godzilla's original attack and return in the present.
The two Kiryu films play around with multiple Toho sci-fi films, but for the most part it's a sequel to 54 with the original Godzilla's bones being used to create Mechagodzilla.
Final Wars, like G2K, is mostly its own thing with 54 being the year Godzilla and other monsters began threatening humanity.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby XvGojira » Tue May 06, 2014 12:11 am

Slightly off topic...

Tyler wrote:Megaguirus outright references 54, only the Oxygen Destroy wasn't used against him, and he resurfaces now and again to feed on sources of energy.

I always took all the movies of the Millennium series as only having '54 as the sole canon movie, and don't recall GxM saying much about Godzilla's attack in '54 other than he attacked. When I get home I think I'll double check that though. EDIT: Just checked my various copies of the movie. It's kind of vague. But there is no mention of the Oxygen destroyer and the scene ends with the line "mankind was powerless and could only stand and watch him vent his rage" so I could see where that idea of the time line comes from. My head canon is still that '54 happened as it did and this Godzilla survived/is a second one.

And Mal, who do you get mind expanders from? They sound like some awesome hardcore stuff. I'd love try some and watch Star Trek the Motion Picture.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby jellydonut25 » Tue May 06, 2014 12:46 am

SpaceMal wrote:So much fan theory.

Seriously, if you're thinking THAT hard about these movies, you're doing it wrong. Plain and simple.


As to the point of "If you don't like it, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist." That's true...but in this case, it doesn't exist because it doesn't exist, with no regard to my thoughts on the matter. Ask ANY of the men involved in the creation of ANY of these films if there's a continuity from Gojira through GFW and they'll laugh and laugh and laugh. Maybe someone would throw a "well, if you WANT there to be" bone...but then they'd still probably laugh.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue May 06, 2014 8:16 am

SpaceMal wrote:but it's definitely not what it seems like at face value.


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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby mbozzo » Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:43 pm

After 'The Terror Of Mechagodzilla, the original Godzilla died while his son became a full adult. Then, he adapted another Minilla before the events of 'Destroy All Monsters'. That what I think. 8)
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby Zack Metoyer » Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:22 am

Although Monster Zero definitely takes place in 196X, I believe the confusion may stem from an edited rerelease (for the Champion Matsuri?) that specifies 198X.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby daikaijusaurus » Wed Jan 21, 2015 5:13 pm

All of you are wrong! :wink: Here is what really happened to the Showa Godzilla:

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6634686/1/King-Kong-vs-Godzilla

This was actually a pretty good fan fiction that pitted the Showa Godzilla against Kong 76. Check it out!

You know I'd love to see someone try to tie the continuity of the Showa, Hesei, Millenium films with Kong 1976. Now that would be an interesting fan fiction :lol:
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby Pkmatrix » Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:13 am

Personally, I've always assumed that Godzilla II died at some point before DAM, that Minilla grew up to be Godzilla III in DAM, and that the Minilla in DAM was a new character entirely. Or, alternatively, it's just a movie completely on its own without any connection to anything else. :lol:

It may frustrate some people, but it's much easier to understand Showa Godzilla as an "era" rather than a single "series" of films. It allows you to separate out the films, only a handful of which share any continuity with each other. Continuity and ongoing storylines didn't really become a major concern in this franchise until the 1980s.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby DannyBeane » Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:32 pm

I still say the showa era is a continuity. It just happens to be a continuity that occasionally gets retconned from film to film much in the way Marvel and DC comics have an evolving continuity. I mean if you look at GRA to TOMG there is obviously no continuity but if you compare GRA to KK vs G then KK vs G to Mothra vs Godzilla etc all the way up to TOMG then each film has a continuity with the one before it. So each film shares a continuity with the film before and the film after it. I know this doesn't make sense but its the best I can explain. A limited continuity. In fact I've type the word continuity so much it has now lost all meaning.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby walshiam » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:37 pm

DAM is the only film that truely broke continuity. It means that "Monster Island" was around quite awhile before 1999. "Monster Land" was established in 1999 on Ogasawara (assumed to be the same island) as a base of operations to study the monsters.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:31 pm

There are semi-significant continuity breaks as early as Ghidrah, with only one larva being alive, then in Monster Zero we have Mothra being ignored by the Xiliens, then in Sea Monster we have Infant Island and the Shobijn looking wildly different than in the past, and things just become even wilder in terms of mental gymnastics from there.
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Re: What do you imagine happened to showa goji?

Postby Pkmatrix » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:45 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:There are semi-significant continuity breaks as early as Ghidrah, with only one larva being alive, then in Monster Zero we have Mothra being ignored by the Xiliens, then in Sea Monster we have Infant Island and the Shobijn looking wildly different than in the past, and things just become even wilder in terms of mental gymnastics from there.


None of those are breaks in continuity, though...

GTTHM addresses there being only one Mothra in dialogue and the changes to Infant Island are really just aesthetic, since it's clearly supposed to be the same place and same characters. Mothra being left out of MZ isn't a break in continuity at all.

IMO, the stretch from MvG through GvSM has probably the greatest sense of continuity outside G'54-GRA and GvMG-ToMG.
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