TALKBACK #9: Destroy All Monsters

[jellydonut25]

[MouthForWar]

[MekaGojira3k]

[Goji 84]

[heroforhirerob]

[John Schuermann]

The people defending Biollante in this thread are absolutely NOT the type of people that give Godzilla films a pass JUST because they are "serious".

Take me for example:
Godzilla Returns - not bad but overall uneven and overly melodramatic.
Godzilla vs. Destoroyah - dreck, overhyped, overblown dreck.
Son of Godzilla - amazing

I for the most part agree with you about the above three films, esp. Son of Godzilla. Destroyah I hold in *slightly* better regard, but talk about a film where the promise of the concepts is let down by the execution...

Nowhere did I say that the people in this thread are the type of people that give Godzilla movies a pass just because they are serious. I was making a general statement based upon my experiences over the years dealing with folks at G-Fest, etc. I went out of my way to thank those who disagreed with me for a stimulating discussion and stated that I thought MekaGojira3k's points were well articulated and I understood where he was coming from. You admitted that you "kinda drifted in and out" and didn't read all of the comments. Please do me a favor and read what I actually wrote.


I honestly don't know where the "bad acting" in Godzilla vs. Biollante lies. If something like Shiragami doesn't work for you personally, that's fine, but the portrayal is spot-on what is called for. Likewise with Miki, or her friend, or the young general, or the guy whose only line I can remember at the moment is right before the volcano explodes and he says, "AMEN!"

I already gave numerous examples of bad acting and bad character concepts in my posts. Of course, much of this always comes down to personal preference and perception, which is why you have people saying "Leonardo DiCaprio is a great actor" right alongside those who say he is one of the worst actors of all time. I already gave my examples and offered to go back and watch the film to see if I could "see it through different eyes." My goal in any disagreement is to try and understand where my "opponent" is coming from and hopefully learn something. I am always hopeful that that is the desire of the person across the table.

I mean, if you want rancid dialogue and terrible performances, look no further than Godzilla vs. Mothra (92).

Agreed, although of course Omori wrote G sv. Mothra as well. From my perspective, G vs. Mothra, Biollante, King Ghidorah and Destroyah all share similar, "Omori-esque" trademarks: a surfeit of poorly developed characters, people speaking in pronouncements rather than sentences, poorly developed emotional and character arcs, etc - the same things I have already gone over.

Biollante isn't a perfect film. It has its faults, I just don't think there is anything anywhere near the level of "the people who are associated with this film ought to be embarrassed/ashamed".

Please, please read what I actually wrote. You put the above statement in quotation marks as if I made it. I never did. I did say that I felt embarrassed for the filmmakers during certain scenes. That is a far cry from saying people should be ashamed. I still maintain that the Omori directed action sequences are incompetently staged and shot. The same is true of the Omori staged action sequences in G vs. KGhidorah. These are the scenes I am talking about.

What in Biollante is as bad as the effects sequences featuring M-11 in King Ghidorah that are either horribly realized or ripoffs of other films?
What dialogue is as bad as nonsensical as the drivel that is spewed forth during Godzilla vs. Mothra?
What element is more cringe-worthy than the "let's fly around on my mechanical pteronadon" scene in Mechagodzilla II?
What character elements are worse than the complete lack of character of two of the main characters in Spacegodzilla?
What acting performance is worse than the mailed-in garbage of people who know the sole reason for a film being made is a gimmick such as in Destoroyah?

I don't quite get what the point of all of the above is, since I never pulled those films out as stunning examples of filmmaking craft. I *did* mention a passing respect for MechaGodzilla II, but that was it. It's as if you perceive me as holding those other films in high regard when I never said anything of the sort. It's kind of like me saying I don't think George Bush did a very good job as president, and then you pulling out examples of how Clinton, Obama, and Jimmy Carter had failings as well. Totally besides the point, especially if I never said "Clinton, Obama and Carter are all better presidents than George Bush."

To at least partially address the examples you give, again - if you actually read my comments - you will hear me praise Kawakita's FX work, re: Biollante, so the M-11 thing is totally off base. In terms of M11 "ripping off" other film's concepts, I totally agree with you and never made the argument that Biollante rips off other films ideas (which is why I can't understand why you even bring up the subject).

I would agree that G vs. Mothra had some of the worst dialogue of the series, and already stated in one of my posts that I STRONGLY AGREED that G. vs. Mothra and Destroyah were most guilty of this. The only point of disagreement was that I see some of this same "quality" in Biollante and others do not. It's not as if Omori's trademark problems are totally absent from Biollante.

BTW, I like the "flying around in the Pteranodon" scene in MechaGodzilla, which is one of the reasons I think the film has more of a poetic, whimsical tone.

I look at the other near-30 films in the Godzilla series, and by comparison, Biollante is almost pure-gold.

I hope you will go back and actually read what I wrote and give it honest consideration. Hopefully I have given you the same respect.

[John Schuermann]

[John Schuermann]

"I'd also like to add that I don't think anybody who is a fan of GvsMG2 has any place to complain about bad editing and flat direction... I'm a fan of that film too, but it is WAY more flawed technically than Biollante is."

OK, I'll start making my posts more succinct, so people actually read what I said rather than attribute things to me. This is what I wrote:

At least G vs. MechaGodzilla '93 had the good sense to jettison all of the moralizing and hand-wringing in order to just tell a reasonably good story and re-introduce a sense of poetry to the series (something Sekizawa excelled at during the 60s, starting with Mothra).

Where exactly did I say I was a fan of the film and that it had better editing and directing than Biollante? I was trying to make a point about tonal differences between films, of seriousness vs. light-heartedness, etc.

For the record, I do think MechaGodzilla II is more competently staged, edited and directed than Biollante, but that does not mean that I am a "fan" or that I hold it up as some kind of supreme example of great film-making.

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

[John Schuermann]

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

I still don't see anything close to horrible. The agent subplot makes perfect sense, honestly.

I agree, I just stated that those elements were "poorly handled." I agree totally too with this:

Godzilla feeds on radiation, we find out that his cells do the same thing. Suddenly with this discovery you could effectively neutralize nuclear weapons. Hence the espionage and people trying every way under the sun to get their hands on them (Items that render the cold war useless).

Yes, great - and very believable - ideas! Which is why I specifically said those elements could have worked if handled more realistically (ie, in non-Omori fashion .

Super X2 works for me fine. I mean, we had Super X in the first film, and Super X2 is a response to what happened in that first film.

I objected just as strenously to the first Super-X. Even the name sounds like something a 12 year old would have invented while playing with his Godzilla toys. As you so well said, "let's deal with the repercussions of Godzilla appearing again in the modern world, and GO." I love that concept! But our modern, real world does not include psychics or technology like the Super-X. Not that something like the Super-X couldn't be developed over time and with proper need.

Here is my guess, which is at least backed up by some of the reports by those familiar with the making of G '85 and BIOLLANTE. Toho execs asked that "mecha" be inserted into the script of G '85 for box office and nostalgia reasons ("people loved that stuff in the old Godzilla movies, let's put them in these new ones!"). Do I know that this happened? No, not exactly, but I have heard from reliable sources that something along these lines did occur. To me, the Super-X presence in both films smacks of exactly this kind of thinking. It's presence adds nothing to the film except for to pull at least me completely out of it. As in, "where the hell did THAT come from?"

Yes, all films require a willing suspension of disbelief. I will admit that I am probably less willing to suspend disbelief than most. It really is a matter of threshold, isn't it? I mean, you are ok accepting Godzilla's existence (probably impossible), yet not willing to accept that Rodan can dissolve into sparklies in order to revive Godzilla. Why not? You've accepted one impossible / improbable thing, why not the other? It's a threshold of believability thing. My threshold of believability gets lowered when a film has a light-hearted, more poetic / impressionistic take on the subject matter, and raised very high when a film takes a more realistic tone. I think that is really what this is all about for me.

Should we move this to the Godzilla vs. Biollante thread? [/quote]

That would make far too much sense

[jellydonut25]

[Psycho Soldier]

[Giganfan]

I'm from the generation of Godzilla fans that considered this to be the "Holy Grail" of Godzilla movies, being the only one that had not been released to VHS at the time. I first saw Destroy All Monsters was in '92, I believe, and I was six years old. All I can say is that, along with Godzilla On Monster Island, Godzilla vs. The Cosmic Monster and other specific Toho fantasy films of the classic era, my imagination had never been so set ablaze, and I'm willing to bet it hasn't been since. This movie falls under the category of "critic-proof", as far as I'm concerned. It's difficult for me to acknowledge it's weaknesses, because mt heart is so much for it. Producer Tomoyuki Tanaka, Director Ishiro Honda, Special Effects Technicians Eiju Tsuburaya and Sademasa Arikawa, Composer Akira Ifukube, Akira Kubo, Jun Tazaki, Yoshiyo Tsuchiya, Yoshifumi Tajima, Kyoko Ai, Chotaro Togin, Yukiko Kobayashi...GODZILLA, RODAN, MINYA, KING GHIDORAH, ANGILAS, MOTHRA, GOROSAURUS, MANDA, KUMONGA, BARAGON, VARAN, etc. etc. etc.

With some Godzilla movies, the verdict is simple: "I love this damn- movie. END OF STORY". Destroy All Monsters is just too sweet.

[MekaGojira3k]

I wish I could love Destroy All Monsters that much.

[jellydonut25]

[Giganfan]

[MekaGojira3k]

[jellydonut25]

[MekaGojira3k]

[heroforhirerob]

[The Real McCoy]

It seemed like there was a lot of "get on with it" moments in this movie.

[Psycho Soldier]