TALKBACK #9: Destroy All Monsters

[John Schuermann]

[John Schuermann]

[Rodanex]

[MekaGojira3k]

[Legion]

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

"I have no problem with the "We're the lethal weapons" guys or the Saradian Agent. Are they funny? Yeah, sure, but are we really meant to find them as serious threats? Even during the final moments before the explosion releases Godzilla there's a decent amount of comedy."

I guess here is a major difference in perception - I think the characters / scenes are unintentionally funny. We are laughing at how bad the acting / concepts are, which is totally at odds with the serious tone of the rest of the film (which is part of my problem - the tonal shifts are jarring, IMO).

I also share the confusion as to why Erika's soul being trapped in a rose isn't a problem but the Super X and psychics are.

I do have a problem with Erika's "soul" being trapped in the rose, but not a problem with her DNA being combined into the mix as a good SF concept to be explored. I said "cells," not "soul." Even then, the idea that possibly her soul could be "transplanted" (no pun intended) along with her DNA is an interesting concept that could be explored in a far more intelligent way than presented in the film.

Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla, a film you commend, is really bad for this. Really, ancient plant leaves become a song? That said song somehow powers up a monster on an island in the Bering sea? Rodan turns into glitter to heal Godzilla?

Apologies if I did not make my point clear. I don't have a problem if a film goes for a more fantasy vibe (MechaGodzilla) or a more scientific vibe (2001, Andromeda Strain). My problem is when both are mixed and the film becomes schizophrenic as a result. Films like the original Gojira, Biollante, and G '85 all purport (IMO) to take place in the "real" world, and try to make serious philosophical points within a real world framework. My point is that that is undermined when wildly unbelievable elements are tossed in, like the SuperX, goofball foreign agents, and psychics. If you establish a more fantastical, poetic, or even light-hearted tone (like MechaGodzilla, Monster Zero and Mothra did, for example), I find those elements easily digestible. It's the conflation of the two I have a problem with.

You could easily argue that the Oxygen Destroyer in the first film fits into the "fantasy" element category, and I suppose you would have a point. But its use in the film is to make a larger point that mankind is always going to develop newer and more horrible weapons, and somewhere that has to stop. While the science as explained by Serizawa is shaky at best, changing or adding one or two lines in the script could easily flesh out the ideas and make them more believable. In G'85 and Biollante, along comes this ridiculous piece of hardware (the Super-X) with no contextual or thematic significance and blows all believability right out of the water. It doesn't help that in both films the pieces of hardware are accompanied by massively corny pieces of music that elicit laughs instead of awe.

Not to mention Godzilla vs. MechaGodzilla 93 drops it's stupid "theme" right at the end. "Yeah Life. Over. Artificial Life." It didn't even have the good sense to properly integrate it.

Totally agreed - this was an incredibly awkward scene. However, I would argue that the film was tonally consistent, which is why I praised it for jettisoning the pretentious hand wringing of the Omori films. The very idea that humankind would build a giant robot of Godzilla complete with spines and an artificial roar is totally ridiculous - but it works in the film precisely since the film adopts more of a poetic, whimsical tone.

The Super X theme doesn't make me think of pirates so much as a slight emulation of John Williams' Superman stuff. If that kind of music can be used for a flying man in a costume then it can be used for a heroic piece of machinery used to fight Godzilla.

Right within your sentence I find the very thing that I object to - "a heroic piece of machinery." That's the intellectual subtext of the music in these scenes? In "Superman," you can sense and understand Williams working out all kinds of musical and subtextual ideas within the Superman music - heroism (use of perfect fifths), the unique "American" aspects of the character (in harmonizing the theme by using major chords with the fourth in the bass, a musical device used by Copeland and adopted by Williams to give an "Americana" vibe to the score), a sense of innocence and playfulness (by using major 7ths in order to subtly evoke a "jazzy" vibe to much of the music). In Biollante (and G '85), you are left with a heroic piece of machinery.

I also think Shiragami is portrayed as well as I'd like.

Here we just have more of a difference of opinion. I can understand your take on the character and performance, but I think it would have been much more effective if we could see him struggle with the consequences of his actions, and feel more empathy with him when he tries to figure out a way to make his daughter immortal. This is fascinating stuff, and could have been all the more so if the film had allowed Shiragami more of a clear emotional arc - one that could have been heart-wrenching.

Thanks for taking the time to clearly and rationally addressing my points.

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

Your points are well articulated, and I see where you are coming from. A few points:

I see the creation of MechaGodzilla himself as a fantasy element. It's totally ridiculous on the face of it. Right from the start, I jettison any expectation that this will be a "realistic" film.

I actually don't mind the psychic stuff later on in the series, particularly in MechaGodzilla, where the goofiness of the concept works much better IMO. It's when contrasted with the somewhat believable science of *parts* of Biollante I rebel

Of course, one has to accept the existence of Godzilla from the start, and they do at least have the characters deal with and grapple with the very fact of his existence. In the case of the two SuperX craft, think about the research, time and radical new science that would have to go into building such a craft. Try to imagine a realistic film like Close Encounters suddenly having the SuperX show up at the end to deal with the mothership. It would be jarring, to say the least, and probably laughed off the screen. It is in this type of science fiction construct that I find the SuperX craft embarrassing. They just kind of "show up."

Personally, I like the G '85 score EXCEPT the SuperX march. I saw the film during the initial theatrical release on two different occasions, and both times there were lots of bad laughs from the audience when the ship showed up. One of them was mine.

The only hand wringing I see is really in movies like Godzilla vs. Mothra or Godzilla vs. Destroyah where it feels like the characters are really trying to convince me that what they think are super important issues are super important.

TOTALLY AGREED. I am thankful that you see exactly what I am talking about in regard to this element of the Heisei series. Obviously I see this in Biollante too where you do not. I also totally agree with this statement:

The Godzilla films, especially the heisei stuff, really ride the line between fantasy and scifi

Some of this is personal preference, but I would prefer that they either go one way or the other. And it is also my personal preference that if they go the fantasy route they keep it light and entertaining rather than serious, heavy, and pretentious. This is why I tend to prefer the Showa series as a whole. Sekizawa wisely concentrated on keeping the films light and character driven once the heavy themes of the original Gojira had been removed from the series. There are only so many ways you can keep making the point that Godzilla is a symbol of nuclear aggression and a stand-in for the bomb.

One statement of yours I totally disagree with:

psychics and telekinesis are ... legit scifi concepts

There is absolutely no science behind either of these concepts - at least as far as human beings here on this planet (beings from Vulcan, on the other hand, may be excepted

[MekaGojira3k]

I will say this about the psychics and telekinesis. They are Legit scifi concepts. They're in ALL kinds of science fiction. They're also decidedly not fantasy based. So I feel like they jive in Biollante. I also can't see the creation of MechaGodzilla 93 as a fantasy element and then see Godzilla's existence in 1984 as a realistic hard scifi element. I also don't hold the expectation that GvsMG93 is going to be realistic, but the stuff with Rodan really feels crazy out of place even in the Heisei series.

[John Schuermann]

[MekaGojira3k]

[gila-monster]

[John Schuermann]

I agree that Godzilla films don't need to be realistic, which is why I love most of the Showa era films. That was never what I was trying to say.

I really must not be making my point clear. I am just saying that I object when the films try to have it both ways.

Making the SuperX believable does not require a 3 hour film, nor do I require the film to go into details about the construction. My point, more than anything, is that it comes out of nowhere (as you noted). For a good example of what I am talking about, look at Close Encounters. Nowhere in the film do they spend a great deal of time showing how the "landing pad" at the end of the film is created, but it is hardly pulled out of a hat. And it is totally believable in terms of available technology plus the thematic and subtextual needs of the story.

Godzilla did not really have a solid scientific explanation, but that to me is besides the point. Since I've brought up Close Encounters several times now (if only because it happened to spring to mind), I would like to use it as an example of what I am talking about. To me, Close Encounters is much like the original Gojira in that it tries to deal with its subject matter from a standpoint of being set in the real world, illustrating how people might actually react to the appearance of aliens or a giant monster. Now, one could certainly cry foul in that Godzilla could not actually exist, or that the aliens in CE3K could not exist because of the impossibility of faster than light travel. Even taking these "impossibilities" into account, the films do attempt to be realistic at least in terms of human reactions to these fantastic events.

IMO, Biollante attempts to be set in this type of real world and deal with believable implications of the existence of its title characters. That is why the appearance of psychics and the SuperX seems so out of place to me, just like it would if those elements showed up in Gojira or Close Encounters. Make sense? When we are talking about a film like Monster Zero (or G vs. MechaGodzilla), there is no pretense of a "real world" scenario, so therefore (almost) anything goes. In the Monster Zero context, I have no problem believing in A Cycle Light Rays and that massive vehicles to transport them could be constructed in a matter of days, if not hours. Plunk those down in the middle of "Gojira" and all of the carefully built up realistic atmosphere is destroyed.

In other words, it is a difference of approach, style and tone. And I find that the realistic tone of some elements of Biollante clashes directly with the fantastic tone of other elements.

[MekaGojira3k]

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't feel like the Super X or Miki are too fantastical to work. They, honestly are less fantastical than Godzilla is and they work because of it. Or, I feel that they work.

[John Schuermann]

[John Schuermann]

[MekaGojira3k]

[John Schuermann]

[MouthForWar]

[jellydonut25]

[John Schuermann]

[kiryugoji04]

[MekaGojira3k]

[kiryugoji04]