TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILERS -

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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby lhb412 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:28 am

kiryugoji04 wrote:
Gargantuan Gargantua wrote:
kiryugoji04 wrote:I hated it. :\


I am starting a support group.


Good. I really need one about now.


Honestly, the fact that the film's greatest sins are largely just repeats of the problems of the Heisei films is... kind of funny? It's like, there's no need to criticize because I can just copy and paste things I've written online since I was a teenager!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Gargantuan Gargantua » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:32 am

This biggest sin is that most of the monster battles are hard to look at.

Godzilla vs Biollante final battle took place in a down pour and I could still see everything. The shaky cam and dark monster fights are not something I remember from those movies. I could have forgiven all the flaws of the movie if I could have enjoyed some monster fights where I can actually see stuff and not get a headache.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:49 am

The BIGGEST sin, like, by a country mile, and the only thing I'm struggling with in terms of pushing this film any higher than it is on my rankings, and what actually might end up bothering me more over time (especially if/when Godzilla vs. Kong doesn't address this issue) is the continued attitude of being WILDLY cavalier about the use of WMDs.

The nuke feels like a TAD less of an issue here than in 2014, because it's not a populated area and it was already an inhospitable radioactive area, though the detonation of a nuclear weapon shouldn't be such a commonplace thing in a GODZILLA MOVIE....and it shouldn't come without CONSEQUENCES.

Likewise, Skyping in the OXYGEN DESTROYER as something that's not even REALLY a plot-point is kind of a dog's ass move. They just say "Oxygen Destroyer" so everyone can slap their popcorn buttery fingers together and say "I get that reference!" and then there's NO consequences for its use. It's wildly irresponsible, and utterly pointless. Godzilla could just as easily have been hurt by KG and had to go into his cave to heal and then get powered up. There's absolutely no reason the OD is here except LAZY fan service.

Charles Dance's character being utterly absent from the finale ties into this issue as well. This movie is utterly lacking in consequences.
I reserve the right to say it was just all glorious set up if this is all addressed in GvK...but I really don't think we're ever getting anything further out of the use of the oxygen destroyer, and I KNOW that nuke isn't getting mentioned again.

Granted, these are mistakes that at least several other Godzilla movies make:
-Godzilla vs. Hedorah posits that fossil fuels and pollution are bad but then has Godzilla use his radioactive fire breath to light it on fire...that's a jumbling of the metaphor for sure.
-Terror of Mechagodzilla specifically points out and recalls that Godzilla is radioactive, and then it's no big deal that he's charging through city streets and he's the HERO.
-Godzilla 1984/85 features Godzilla plucking out a nuclear reactor with characters standing nearby and observing with no ill effects
-Godzilla vs. Biollante recalls the radioactivity of Godzilla and does nothing significant with it.
-Godzilla vs. Destoroyah hand-waves away radiation in its finale, and also mucks up Destoroyah and its oxygen destroyer connections
-Godzilla x Megaguirus mentions Godzilla's radioactivity and then has a character ride on him with no ill effects.
-Godzilla vs. King Ghidorah features characters setting out to detonate nukes in order to help Godzilla.

So, this isn't anything NEW for the franchise, but also, only one of these movies mentioned above is in my top 10, and I would probably say in most of those cases, the thing mentioned is a MAJOR flaw (less-so in TOMG and Biollante, but it's there).
It's a significant issue in a GODZILLA movie, plain and simple.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Gargantuan Gargantua » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:23 am

Hey I was trying to find something to like in this movie and once I checked out of the story, all I was looking for was the dumbest form of entertainment. Well filmed monster battles.

Also. lol jelly

jellydonut25 wrote:Likewise, Skyping in the OXYGEN DESTROYER as something that's not even REALLY a plot-point is kind of a dog's ass move. They just say "Oxygen Destroyer" so everyone can slap their popcorn buttery fingers together and say "I get that reference!"


I CLAPPED BECAUSE I KNOW OXYGEN DESTROYER?!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Joseph Goodman » Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:27 am

jellydonut25 wrote:The BIGGEST sin, like, by a country mile, and the only thing I'm struggling with in terms of pushing this film any higher than it is on my rankings, and what actually might end up bothering me more over time (especially if/when Godzilla vs. Kong doesn't address this issue) is the continued attitude of being WILDLY cavalier about the use of WMDs.
The nuke feels like a TAD less of an issue here than in 2014, because it's not a populated area and it was already an inhospitable radioactive area, though the detonation of a nuclear weapon shouldn't be such a commonplace thing in a GODZILLA MOVIE....and it shouldn't come without CONSEQUENCES.


This reminds me of a major plot point I hated about G2014... they removed the nuclear aspect of Godzilla's origin. No longer created by the bomb, it's just some ancient whatcamacallit that has always existed, thereby negating any connection to nuclear weapons, radiation, the Operation Castle tests in 1954, etc. It also rendered the Serizawa character and his connection to the bomb meaningless, leaving it as cheap cargo-cult sentiment made irrelevant by that alteration to Godzilla's origin.

jellydonut25 wrote:Likewise, Skyping in the OXYGEN DESTROYER as something that's not even REALLY a plot-point is kind of a dog's ass move. They just say "Oxygen Destroyer" so everyone can slap their popcorn buttery fingers together and say "I get that reference!"


That's most of the set pieces in this film, really.

jellydonut25 wrote:except LAZY fan service


It's the one bit of fan service they didn't put a lot of effort in to...
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby kiryugoji04 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:28 pm

The handling of the nuclear issue is the primary thing that ruined the film for me. I mean, I also hate it for a myriad of other reasons but its nuclear politics are absolutely repugnant. Godzilla has been a cautionary tale against the use of atomic weaponry and he's been a superhero but Legendary wanted to have their cake and eat it too and never stopped to consider the implications. In smashing these things together so carelessly they have inadvertently made a pro-nuclear Godzilla film. I never thought I would dislike a Godzilla film less than '98 - and especially not this film - but here we are.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby lhb412 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:44 pm

^ That's totally understandable. It is careless...

The only thing that could potentially save that plot point is if they'd go whole-hog into that sense of ambiguity they had at the very end of this movie, the potential of Godzilla turning against humanity - which I think would be a terrific ending for the MonsterVerse at the end of the fourth film: returning to something like the character's core concept.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:50 pm

I have fewer problems with the use of nuclear weaponry in this movie than the 2014 movie, because this is a much less realistic take and the 2014 movie is irresponsible in the way it uses a nuclear weapon around populated areas as just a toy...

....but at the same time, it would have been SO easy to at least pay some lip service here (Which is all that's done in a large number of Godzilla movies anyway)

Any Character: "Wait. Dr. Serizawa, haven't you always said that using nuclear weapons is what brought the titans about in the first place? Isn't this irresponsible? Won't this make things worse?"
Serizawa: "We have no choice. Without Gojira, Ghidorah will only become more powerful and we will face extinction."

BOOM. It's like, 5 seconds and at least acknowledges the inherent lack of responsibility here.

It still doesn't fix the OD, though that can be fixed in Godzilla vs. Kong (VERY MUCH DOUBT IT WILL BE).

So, less problematic, but also more problematic because it would have been easier to fix??? It's why I'm struggling with it.


Still doesn't fix that they blew up a nuke five feet from his head and he was totally fine.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby GFan » Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:25 pm

Joseph Goodman wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:The BIGGEST sin, like, by a country mile, and the only thing I'm struggling with in terms of pushing this film any higher than it is on my rankings, and what actually might end up bothering me more over time (especially if/when Godzilla vs. Kong doesn't address this issue) is the continued attitude of being WILDLY cavalier about the use of WMDs.
The nuke feels like a TAD less of an issue here than in 2014, because it's not a populated area and it was already an inhospitable radioactive area, though the detonation of a nuclear weapon shouldn't be such a commonplace thing in a GODZILLA MOVIE....and it shouldn't come without CONSEQUENCES.


This reminds me of a major plot point I hated about G2014... they removed the nuclear aspect of Godzilla's origin. No longer created by the bomb, it's just some ancient whatcamacallit that has always existed, thereby negating any connection to nuclear weapons, radiation, the Operation Castle tests in 1954, etc. It also rendered the Serizawa character and his connection to the bomb meaningless, leaving it as cheap cargo-cult sentiment made irrelevant by that alteration to Godzilla's origin..


This is my biggest complaint with Legendary's Godzilla too. They should have kept his origin the way it was OR had the nuclear tests be responsible for him being the size he is, etc. Keep that "nukes are bad" message in there somewhere.

But then again, Godzilla pretty much represents America in the original 1954 film.. and we are the quintessential nuke-happy country.. so I'm not surprised the original allegory has been lost in the Hollywood version of Godzilla.

I still really enjoy GKotM, even if it's the long-lost Heisei film at times. :lol:
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby mr.negativity » Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:55 pm

Indie Wire:
‘Godzilla: King of the Monsters’ Review: A Sequel That’s Dark, Wet, and Inept
Kate Erbland wrote:Night sequences in the final season of “Game of Thrones” inspired a litany of complaints from fans and critics that they couldn’t see what the hell was going on. Now we have “Godzilla: King of the Monsters” — and with it, fresh inspiration for squinting. If you thought you couldn’t make out what was happening during The Battle of Winterfell, prepare thyself for an entire film built on the concept that, when giant monsters battle each other, they actually create tropical storms, gusting rain, and a baffling amount of cloud cover.

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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Mac » Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:10 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:The handling of the nuclear issue is the primary thing that ruined the film for me. I mean, I also hate it for a myriad of other reasons but its nuclear politics are absolutely repugnant. Godzilla has been a cautionary tale against the use of atomic weaponry and he's been a superhero but Legendary wanted to have their cake and eat it too and never stopped to consider the implications. In smashing these things together so carelessly they have inadvertently made a pro-nuclear Godzilla film. I never thought I would dislike a Godzilla film less than '98 - and especially not this film - but here we are.



Look, love you buddy, but we've been here before. In Godzilla vs Megalon, humanity's nuclear testing destroys Monster Island and plagues Seatopia, but Godzilla still decides to fight for them. Now granted, that is a MUCH better film.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Gargantuan Gargantua » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:54 am

plz, monsterverse doesn't deserve him.... (bottom right)

Spoiler Below:
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TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILERS -

Postby Benjamin Haines » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:36 am

This is definitely the Final Wars of American Godzilla movies. Accordingly, I adored it. I've seen it three times now.

As a lifelong fan, it's impossible not to compare Godzilla: King of the Monsters to what's come before because there's so much influence from past entries on display throughout this new film. Like Final Wars, it's a kind of "greatest hits" compilation of tropes and elements from the series' history. Like GFW, it doesn't reinvent the wheel but it reconfigures those classic elements into a unique new concoction with zippy pacing and an "everything but the kitchen sink" approach. While GFW was a Japanese movie that leaned hard on Hollywood blockbusters for plot material, G:KotM is an American adaptation that draws heavily from past Godzilla flicks for its story turns. Both movies follow ensembles of disparate characters as they traverse the planet in a flying warship trying to prevent global destruction, and both films end with Godzilla rebounding from near-defeat to annihilate Ghidorah, leaving the world forever changed by the rise of so many monsters.

After the mixed reception for G'14 from general audiences, I thought G:KotM would be a borderline reboot that ignored its predecessor. I was pleasantly surprised by how deliberately this movie serves as a true-blue sequel to G'14, visually and thematically, from the story to the worldbuilding. Like G'14, G:KotM examines how the presence of giant monsters in the world directly impacts a particular family. Whereas G'14 was about a family that gets caught up in the MUTO proceedings, G:KotM dives headfirst into the genre by focusing on a family of scientists who already worked for Monarch when their lives were upended in 2014. The Russells are the heart of this movie along with Serizawa and I love the fact that all of the protagonists are either scientists or G-Team troops. Like Kong: Skull Island or Godzilla: Final Wars, this film has an eclectic ensemble that's fun to watch.

The cinematography isn't quite as consistently majestic as in G'14 but this is still a beautiful film to look at. Virtually every shot of the monsters is a money shot unto itself. I really appreciate the lack of any phony-looking composite shots that try to give the sense of a camera moving in impossible ways. I also didn't have trouble seeing what was going on during any of the monster action. I don't mind if action scenes take place at night or in heavy weather if it suits the story and it looks good, so that wasn't a problem for me in this case.

The monsters all have convincingly massive screen presence, the action is gloriously executed, and they absolutely nailed these portrayals of Godzilla, Ghidorah, Mothra and Rodan. They're each brimming with personality and true to their prior incarnations. This is the best portrayal of Ghidorah since the '60s and I say that as someone who loves the Heisei and anime versions. This Ghidorah is sinister, he's chaotic, he's from outer space and he looks so much like his classic self, golden scales and all. He's bent on laying waste to the entire world using Earth's Titans and he generates a devastating tropical storm wherever he goes. Magnificent!

There were things about this movie that I didn't like. Aside from the scenes that featured Godzilla's classic theme, the music is usually too buried in the sound mix to appreciate it. Even Mothra's theme was nearly inaudible until the very end of the waterfall scene. What really gets me though is the "repeat what you just said" trope near the end when an offhand comment from Barnes makes Emma and Mark realize that Madison went home. That's such a ridiculous cliche, as if viewers need to hear the character repeat the line in order to make the same realization for themselves. That cliche just keeps recurring in fiction, even in an episode of Doctor Who a few years back. If someone says something that gives you a Eureka moment, why would you then need them to repeat it?

I didn't avoid plot spoilers before I saw G:KotM, but while I knew the whole sequence of events going in, there were still some things that surprised me. My favorite surprise was the fact that Ziyi Zhang's twin characters are part of several generations of twin ladies who have worked at Monarch for decades, including on Infant Island in 1961. They're Mothra's priestesses! I was also taken aback by the abundance of rapid-fire worldbuilding in the end credits. Godzilla vs. Kong is going to take place in an absolutely wild world of monsters and I am excited to see it!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Gwangi » Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:16 pm

Gargantuan Gargantua wrote:plz, monsterverse doesn't deserve him.... (bottom right)

Spoiler Below:
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Spoiler Below:
Well, what eventually is going to happen is that they are going to use Ghidrah's DNA from the severed head, and mix it with another animal to complete the sequence. But instead of a frog, like in "Jurassic Park", they will use the DNA of a turtle and thus Gamera is born! That would naturally explain his flying and fire power! :mrgreen:
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby battrafan » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:13 pm

I wish Toho was more lenient with licensing out their kaiju, it’s not like more exposure would hurt their business. How awesome would the final shot have been with a group of the showa monsters instead the bland ones we got?
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Jinzo Ningen » Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:44 pm

Another thing that really surprised and rather bothered me was the use of so much coarse language. Having the tweenage daughter shout the s-word a half dozen times or so at the film's opening was one, but the worst offender (literally) was O'Shea commenting "You gotta be F-ing kidding me."

Sorry, but there is NO reason - aside from shock factor and to solidify a PG13 rating - to have this kind of language in this film. And the old "but they hear that everywhere anyhow" is a garbage copout excuse. I don't offer this complaint as some easily offended virgin-eared crybaby. I have no issue with crass language when it works for the film. I totally love MIDNIGHT RUN, and it's chock full of F-bombs... but it works in the context and is therefor neither all that surprising nor hard to take.

G:KotM, on the other hand, is the kind of film you want to take your kids & grandkids to, in order to share your love of - and enthusiasm for - the monsters and mayhem that you grew up loving as a kid yourself. This is not a surprise motivation either, but a given. As such, why on Earth would the filmmakers see fit to shoehorn in obscenities??? Sorry guys, but I don't need or want to hear the F-word in a Godzilla film - EVER. Totally pointless, and classless. Shame on you, Michael Dougherty.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby tbeasley » Tue Jun 04, 2019 10:00 pm

lhb412 wrote:Honestly, the fact that the film's greatest sins are largely just repeats of the problems of the Heisei films is... kind of funny? It's like, there's no need to criticize because I can just copy and paste things I've written online since I was a teenager!

I had a big franchise re-watch before KOTM and it finally occurred to me that when I haven't watched them in a while, I think I don't like the 90s Heisei films, but as I'm watching them, I'm able to enjoy them in the moment. Perhaps I'm just mellowing out but if KOTM turns out that way for me I'm cool with it.

Saw the film again and enjoyed it a bit more in certain areas considering I had my expectations in place. I'm not getting the issue some have with the cast and pacing. I like how the movie bulldozes ahead and the lively, engaging cast aids in that. It certainly doesn't screech to a halt every other scene like G14 which wards me off from casual revisits (unless I'm having one of those big marathons).

But I'm definitely in agreement with most of you in feeling KOTM fumbles two major scenes/ideas:

1) The Oxygen Destroyer, which brings in all kinds of baggage. They could have just named it something else, or avoided this plot point entirely by leaving Godzilla defeated in Antarctica, or continuing the fight/chase into the ocean where Ghidorah (perhaps teaming with Rodan - driving that point home) defeats Godzilla.

2) Serizawa's Sacrifice/Burning Godzilla. Reviving Godzilla with a nuke definitely comes across tone deaf in an American film. I feel they tried to mend this somewhat with Godzilla going nuclear, but it's too little too late - not enough emphasis is brought to it, and it's ultimately used as a power-up on Godzilla's end to beat the bad guy. It's never clear WHY he doesn't explode in the end - Ghidorah siphoning off his energy? Mothra's transference of energy after death? It never feels like a proper double edged sword.

I like the IDEA of Serizawa sacrificing himself, coming to terms with how/why he devoted his life to Godzilla; it's a nice reversal on the original character. And it's not the first time nukes were used to revive Godzilla with potential consequences (Godzilla vs King Ghidorah, which has its own tonal issues, I know). But you can't help but feel they could've approached the whole scenario in an easier, more satisfying, less dodgy way.

So I guess you could just call it a problematic fave for some? All in all I certainly didn't find it overstaying its welcome like the sluggish SpaceGodzilla, or as lame and exhausting as G98, or making you feel like you've done an 8 ball of coke by yourself like Final Wars (not that I know anything about that).
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby lhb412 » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:25 pm

Okay, I saw it a second time last night and I'm ready to give something like a coherent appraisal. The movie had so much hype behind it for me that honestly my first viewing was somewhat numb, but now that I've seen it twice...

My appraisal is that the movie is quite bad.

Part of the problem is with the script... characterization... stuff like that. The other problem is with presentation; in the style and execution of the monster effects sequences and editing in general. In both respects, this movie is weak, meaning that neither one can rise up to save the movie and supplant the other whenever necessary to make it entertaining or enjoyable.

The central fractured family has a great introduction (I'm a big fan of the kitchen scene that appears to be a normal American house, but pulls out to reveal the location as in a dense rainforest next to an ancient temple) but once they're introduced they spend most of the time running around and yelling and not developing their characters sufficiently forward. Vera Farmiga is especially disappointing, because her arc could potentially be very interesting, but it's sketched in so basic a fashion it's hard to get invested. Millie Bobby Brown is fine in the role, but is given very little to do, especially considering she was touted as the lead since the beginning. Kyle Chandler's character is probably the most fleshed-out, but it's also very cliche, of a long line of sad dad characters that have populated recent cinema, and reminiscent of better characters Chandler has already played. He ends up being an annoying grump. Ken Watanabe is amazing at delivering ridiculous lines in a grave manner, but considering that's the only thing he's asked to do the one-note nature of it wears thin pretty quickly. The eco-terrorists are annoyingly underdeveloped. Charles Dance does try to add a bit of high camp to his performance, but he never goes all-out into Langella Skeletor territory, which would have been most welcome in my opinion! As for the crew of G-Force... I mean, as for the crew of Monarch, they represent the exact wrong execution of an Ultraman defense team. You know how in a good Ultraman show the defense team members have personalities that complement and bounce off each other well? Well, here they're a bunch of idiots that provide a bunch of exposition yet can never make a good decision unless Kyle Chandler's character can give the common sense solution to whatever problem they have that they, despite having seemingly all the great scientists in the world, just can't see. It's annoying as all get-out! It's an airship full of idiots being bossed around by a grumpy Kyle Chandler. Perhaps the scenario could have been mined for comedy, but the one-liners here are quite tepid. At least Bradley Whitford is somewhat amiable, even if most of his jokey lines are groaners, another one playing a pale imitation a better characters they played in better films.

The story is so chaotic that nothing can be developed sufficiently. It's hard to get invested in something when everything is just flying by. Something like the Oxygen Destroyer has little impact; introduced, implemented and forgotten about so quickly only a fan recognizing it as a callback could possibly remember it even happened at all.

And let's talk about all the callbacks; the fanservice. I found it pretty annoying, to be honest. I resent being expected to applaud something just because I recognize it as familiar. It's not enough that something familiar be plugged into a story; it has to be twisted somehow or developed naturally in the story itself so that even new audiences can appreciate it coming in cold. What's the use of replicating certain shots from old movies if the movie fails to understand the storytelling function those shots had in those movies? It's bizarre. It's like in Arthur C. Clarke's novel of 2001, when Dave realizes the room he's in isn't a room for a human being to actually dwell in, but rather something like a sculpture made by the alien intelligence based on images of human rooms. Godzilla: King of the Monsters is a sculpture of a Godzilla movie made by someone very familiar with them without the understanding of how even some of the most basic one's work.

But, at the very least the monster scenes are worth it, right? Sadly, I found most of them quite poor. There are excellent, beautifully composed shots of the monsters which have largely been seen in the promotional material. But taken as whole sequences in the film these scenes are undercut by certain bad technical and creative choices. First of all, almost every shot of the monsters is only a few seconds long only to cut to human reaction shot of equal length before cutting back to the monsters. This disjointed approach makes it very difficult to appreciate the fights as fights. Fights are storytelling, they must be followed and understood. These fights are a barely connected sequence of things that people thought were cool shots or moments without the care of being cohesive storytelling. They're also undermined buy inconsistent framing and shot choices often revolving around having the human heroes being directly underfoot of fighting monsters and miraculously (mostly) being able to make it out relatively unharmed despite the fact that even the most generous audience member would expect instant death from this close proximity. It makes the drama less dramatic when we can't buy the peril and it awkwardly effects our perspective of the monster battles so it ends up making the sequences seem even less realistic then the most basic man in suit fight! Unfortunately, it feels like Doigherty is trying to replicate the tricks Edwards used just such great effect at the end of the 2014 film, which just goes to show what a meticulous, even brilliant visual storyteller Edwards is.

The monsters, in personality and character, are all fun. I don't have a problem with that. It's great to see Rodan being badass again after spending the majority of his career demoted to a second banana who never got a chance to shine like and his 1957 film. Godzilla is maybe a bit too close to Gamera's characterization for my taste. King Ghidorah comes off as more of a jerk then as ultimate evil, but honestly that's probably more interesting in terms of something the audience can wrap their heads around. Mothra is appropriately mystical, even if the movie tries to couch everything in something plausible sounding.

That's another problem I had: the film is so over-the-top but always keeps pulling its punches by explaining how plausible whatever is going on is. If they just said magic exists or King Ghidorah was exerting a psychic influence on the human bad guys imagine how more simpler and understandable the plot would be! Maybe the bad guys are aliens who want to destroy the human race? There's a reason Toho keeps using that plot: it's clear and understandable! Not everything has to be overcomplicated and over-explained. That doesn't make something more sophisticated or modern, it just wastes the audience's time.

And, as has been said before; the inversion of having Serizawa sacrificing himself by reviving Godzilla with a nuke to save the world is a certainly unintentional but nevertheless terrible middle finger to the themes of the characters of both Godzilla and Serizawa, as well as of the franchise overall. It turns out nuclear weapons are great! Glad we sorted that out. Even Godzilla vs. Megalon and Final Wars gave better respect to the central metaphor! And to have it done by the one Japanese member of the cast... it's so ignorant it's almost amazing.

But, to wrap up with some positive notices - I like the introductory scene with Rodan. I like both of Mothra's birth sequences. I love that we finally got the Godzilla rock song in the end credits. I got emotional because of the picture of Nakajima in the end credits. I also liked the design of Godzilla's underwater temple, even if I dislike the scene itself. It also holds true to the tokusatsu tradition of showing us something really cool just before wrecking it.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby kiryugoji04 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:58 am

That's an excellent review and pretty much hits on everything I hated about the movie. Maybe I'm just too attached to her after Shape of Water and the Paddington movies but after Sally Hawkins was so callously offed twenty minutes in, I repeatedly considered just up and leaving the theater. The movie was so lacking in cohesion.

The one note I have is that I definitely wouldn't have changed the ecoterrorism subplot. With a better execution and and a better counterargument in the movie somewhere (the movie accidentally let them be in the right aside from backing the wrong alpha monster), I really believe it's a compelling angle for the story. As someone dealing with a deep existential crisis on a daily basis, the idea of radical environmentalism turning into something resembling a dangerous religious fanaticism is something that I obviously don't agree with but I find incredibly fascinating. The conflict between mankind trying to find a peaceful coexistence with nature or just burning it all down is a great starting point that the film ultimately only pays lip service to.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby canofhumdingers » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:45 am

Saw it again last night. This time I made sure to be in my seat a solid 15 minutes prior to show time. Of course this time they actually followed standard procedure and started the previews at showtime which meant the actual film didn’t start until almost 20 minutes after the posted time... whatever.

I thoroughly enjoyed it this time. Actually seeing the opening scene (and not having to try to cool off after being pissed about the movie starting early) really helped being able to follow what was going on and let me just enjoy the proceedings.

I enjoyed the overall plot with the ecoterrorists. I did pick up on how the end credits info (new springing up wherever monsters tread...) kinda made the bad guys correct but I don’t have a problem with that. As someone once said, the most convincing lies are ones that are mostly true. Having the bad guys actually have the right idea but just going about it in the wrong way (and sometimes for the wrong reasons) was actuall ok with me.

The monsters were great. Rodan was my favorite once again. They just did a superb job with him! Mothra was also handled very well even if I wish she’d gotten more time to shine (pun totally intended!). King Ghidorah was pretty great. Not my favorite iteration, but he had some pretty awesome moments and they didn’t do anything that felt out of line with who he should be. After really digging my rewatch of G’14 and now enjoying my second viewing of KOTM, I’m totally onboard with this version of Godzilla. He’s awesome and great fun and respects/understands the character’s history while still doing its own thing. So yeah, they did good with the monsters.

The film still has its problems, but none of them sunk it for me. The fast pace worked for me and it helped keep the interest going despite the somewhat lackluster human drama/comedy/action. While I would’ve appreciated more focus on the monster fights as they were happening, I never felt cheated the way I did in G’14. In G’14 (especially by the third time they do it) it felt like the filmmakers were intentionally trying to piss you off by cutting away from the kaiju action right as it is about to really get going. It felt like they were almost rubbing it in your face that they weren’t showing you the best part. Here they are constantly cutting back and forth between monsters and humans and often the two are in the same area at the same time so even when we cut away to the humans they are quite literally surrounded by the monsters. While the net result might be a similar amount of kaiju screen time per film, KOTM doesn’t produce the same *feeling* of being “cheated”.

Really, the two biggest issues I had with the film this time through were as follows:

First, I wish the cinematography had more breathing room. As in, more wide shots where you really had time to take in the pure spectacle this film was pushing. The constant use of shakycam closeups was a true detriment.

Second, I wish the film were “cleaner” looking (again, allowing you to better see the action). I love the idea of Rodan spewing lava and cinder out the trailing edge of his wings. I love the idea of Ghidorah creating a mega-hurricane around himself. But when EVERYTHING in the film is constantly shrouded in snow, fog, mist, smoke, dust, and debris it grows a bit tiresome.

So yeah, the two biggest gripes I have at this point are with the cinematography.

As for the Oxygen Destroyer; eh, I get why some people are bothered by it but I was fine with me. Don’t really have much to say about it I guess.

For the nuke revival; I don’t have a problem with it the way some of you do. This is an American film and America at large has been pretty pro-nuke since at least 1945. You can look to many other big Hollywood films over decades to see the general attitude, treatment, and use of nuclear weapons in American cinema and that this film does not stray from that general attitude. The problem comes with this particular franchise, one that has its origins steeped in unequivocal nuclear protest and cautionary tales. It creates a paradox in a way, having a pro nuclear culture making a movie in an anti nuclear film franchise. But ultimately you have to reconcile the fact that this is not a Japanese film. It IS an American film that draws from the history of the Japanese franchise but then turns and does it’s own thing with it. And, as has been pointed out, it was the Japanese themselves who first explored the idea of humans using nukes to revive Godzilla, so it’s not like the American filmmakers were just outright giving a middle finger to what had come before...

And the scene itself was really cool and touching and I really liked Serizawa’s character and his final moments with Godzilla. Plus, there WERE repercussions. Maybe the film doesn’t give it enough breathing room because of the pacing, but it’s made quite clear Godzilla is overcharged and is going to explode. It was only Mothra’s energy that allowed him to “pulse” out the extra “juice” in a way that prevented his impending doom (at least that’s what I got out of that sequence).

So, anyway, it’s not perfect but I personally really liked it as an installment of a big budget Hollywood interpretation of the Godzilla franchise.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby lhb412 » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:24 am

kiryugoji04 wrote:The one note I have is that I definitely wouldn't have changed the ecoterrorism subplot. With a better execution and and a better counterargument in the movie somewhere (the movie accidentally let them be in the right aside from backing the wrong alpha monster), I really believe it's a compelling angle for the story. As someone dealing with a deep existential crisis on a daily basis, the idea of radical environmentalism turning into something resembling a dangerous religious fanaticism is something that I obviously don't agree with but I find incredibly fascinating. The conflict between mankind trying to find a peaceful coexistence with nature or just burning it all down is a great starting point that the film ultimately only pays lip service to.


My view was that if they're going to only give lip service to a potentially interesting idea it's better to just be efficient and offer a simple explanation.

I think the version of the film the trailers sold, with Millie Bobby Brown as the main character, would've been the superior movie: her as the audience identification character who tenuously agrees with her mother only to gradually turn away. She'd interact with the other terrorists, some of which would be somewhat likeable. Maybe Charles Dance tries to ingratiate himself as a grandfatherly figure to her but she takes an instant dislike? The two scenes where those two interact are a far more interesting character dynamic than anything going on with the heroes. We spend most of the time with her and that group and only occasionally cut to G-Force to get the minimum necessary amount of exposition.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Dai » Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:17 pm

tbeasley wrote:But I'm definitely in agreement with most of you in feeling KOTM fumbles two major scenes/ideas:

1) The Oxygen Destroyer, which brings in all kinds of baggage. They could have just named it something else, or avoided this plot point entirely by leaving Godzilla defeated in Antarctica, or continuing the fight/chase into the ocean where Ghidorah (perhaps teaming with Rodan - driving that point home) defeats Godzilla.

2) Serizawa's Sacrifice/Burning Godzilla. Reviving Godzilla with a nuke definitely comes across tone deaf in an American film. I feel they tried to mend this somewhat with Godzilla going nuclear, but it's too little too late - not enough emphasis is brought to it, and it's ultimately used as a power-up on Godzilla's end to beat the bad guy. It's never clear WHY he doesn't explode in the end - Ghidorah siphoning off his energy? Mothra's transference of energy after death? It never feels like a proper double edged sword.


I was okay with both of these because they reinforce what has become the unifying theme of the Monsterverse: whatever humans do, whether it be in the name of curiosity or survival, just makes the situation worse. Viewed through that lens, throwing the Oxygen Destroyer at Godzilla and Ghidorah without pausing to consider the consequences is absolutely on-topic. As for Serizawa, I think we in the fan community have strained too hard to draw comparisons to his namesake. Monsterverse Serizawa is defined by one thing: his obsession with Godzilla. His attitude is the equal of all the other people in G2014, Skull Island, and KotM who chase their obsession until it kills them. And as with all the other big decisions people have made in these movies, it causes more problems and the monsters are the only ones who can clean up the mess.

One review of G2014 insightfully called it a post-human movie, and that's true of the Monsterverse as a whole, which posits a world where human ego blinds people from accepting that they've been dealt out of the big game and can no longer meaningfully affect the outcome. Even reviving Godzilla looks like it may have just traded the tyranny of one would-be kaiju king for another. The end credits of KotM suggest that the return of these monsters is good for life on Earth as a whole, but I doubt the billions of people who stand to be pruned for the sake of the natural order will be pleased. If Godzilla vs Kong manages to stick the landing for the Monsterverse's finale, we should expect to see humanity's most desperate bid for survival leading to nature's most violent backlash.

Or, to drag out something I posted on the Godzilla haiku blog a decade ago:

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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby EricDent » Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:20 pm

Gargantuan Gargantua wrote:Don't care if I get hate or not. I thought that movie was shockingly scatter brained and did not enjoy it at all. The only stuff I enjoyed was Rodan on his own. I felt the fights had awful camera work and the CGI was a big step down from the last movie. They were nauseating to watch. I don't care what anybody says, this action scenes almost made me appreciate Bayformers. Something about them really rubbed me the wrong way, which is all I was looking for from this movie in the first place. The movie made me tired and that is coming from someone who likes Man of Steel. I don't think I will watch this movie again in a long time.

I can't wrap my head around this movie. To be completely honest, I am not even mad. I am in more amazement that a movie like this exists.

I gave G'14 a 7/10

I give KoTM a 2/10.

Moving on with life. The End.

Can someone tell me what the end credits scene was? I didn't feel like waiting around.


After the credits the bad guy goes into some sort of black market for monster parts on the island the Oxygen Destroyer hit.
They reveal one of Ghidorah's heads, and he bought it.

Anyhow, I saw it yesterday, and thought it was good!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby Baltan II » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:50 pm

Dai wrote:I was okay with both of these because they reinforce what has become the unifying theme of the Monsterverse: whatever humans do, whether it be in the name of curiosity or survival, just makes the situation worse. Viewed through that lens, throwing the Oxygen Destroyer at Godzilla and Ghidorah without pausing to consider the consequences is absolutely on-topic. As for Serizawa, I think we in the fan community have strained too hard to draw comparisons to his namesake. Monsterverse Serizawa is defined by one thing: his obsession with Godzilla. His attitude is the equal of all the other people in G2014, Skull Island, and KotM who chase their obsession until it kills them. And as with all the other big decisions people have made in these movies, it causes more problems and the monsters are the only ones who can clean up the mess.

One review of G2014 insightfully called it a post-human movie, and that's true of the Monsterverse as a whole, which posits a world where human ego blinds people from accepting that they've been dealt out of the big game and can no longer meaningfully affect the outcome. Even reviving Godzilla looks like it may have just traded the tyranny of one would-be kaiju king for another. The end credits of KotM suggest that the return of these monsters is good for life on Earth as a whole, but I doubt the billions of people who stand to be pruned for the sake of the natural order will be pleased. If Godzilla vs Kong manages to stick the landing for the Monsterverse's finale, we should expect to see humanity's most desperate bid for survival leading to nature's most violent backlash.

Or, to drag out something I posted on the Godzilla haiku blog a decade ago:

Image


This is a really cool idea I hadn’t considered before in looking at the Monsterverse films as a whole but I love how much sense it makes. Thanks for that!

I’ve seen the movie twice so far and immensely enjoyed it. While it won’t become a top favorite as there are minor quibbles with it, I’m shocked (though I shouldn’t be at this point, because everything since Final Wars has been super polarizing) at the number of Godzilla fans that don’t like it. Hopefully GvK will be more to everyone’s liking but until then I foresee a decent number of rewatches of KOTM.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla: King of the Monsters (2019) - SPOILE

Postby william newell » Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:46 am

Saw this for the second time myself, and I have to say, I really enjoyed it more this time. Canofhumdingers pretty much summed up my opinions on this, more satisfying and entertaining than G14, to me. While not as good as Skull Island, this definitely takes the second place spot in my rankings of the Monsterverse. Also, I'm surprised how no one has mentioned how this movie retcons Godzilla's first appearance. According to this film, Godzilla's back to being awakened by atomic testing, not by some sub diving too deep. Still wish the film was "crisper",but I enjoyed it for what it is and I look forward to the Blu-Ray!
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