TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby lhb412 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:19 pm

^The problem is that the Godzilla script was undergoing rewrites very late in the game, and because of that the prequel comic is really a prequel to an earlier draft of the screenplay, not the movie as finished.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby canofhumdingers » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:54 pm

So what does the comic say regarding this? I haven't read it, and probably won't.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby lhb412 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 2:59 pm

^The comic's version of Serizawa would be much older than he appears in the film, which was the intention in earlier drafts, and because of this the chronology of the comic doesn't fit with the movie.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby klen7 » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:22 pm

Quakerzilla wrote:
XvGojira wrote:Yes I know, the comic, but my rule of thumb is it ain't canon unless it is in the film itself.


What about cases like "Pacific Rim" where the writer and director both say "No, the comic is canon." ?
But the PR comic has contradictions with the film.

lhb412 wrote:^The problem is that the Godzilla script was undergoing rewrites very late in the game, and because of that the prequel comic is really a prequel to an earlier draft of the screenplay, not the movie as finished.
if the comic is any sign of things, the movie was in severe need of rewrites...
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby XvGojira » Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:36 am

Quakerzilla wrote:
XvGojira wrote:Yes I know, the comic, but my rule of thumb is it ain't canon unless it is in the film itself.


What about cases like "Pacific Rim" where the writer and director both say "No, the comic is canon." ?


As a fanboy I understand extended universe building, and in discussions with fellow fans it's totally on the table. But the general audience couldn't care less, so I trend to go with the attitude of it if it's not explicitly stated in the films, it didn't happen.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby DannyBeane » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:17 am

XvGojira wrote:
Quakerzilla wrote:
XvGojira wrote:Yes I know, the comic, but my rule of thumb is it ain't canon unless it is in the film itself.


What about cases like "Pacific Rim" where the writer and director both say "No, the comic is canon." ?


As a fanboy I understand extended universe building, and in discussions with fellow fans it's totally on the table. But the general audience couldn't care less, so I trend to go with the attitude of it if it's not explicitly stated in the films, it didn't happen.
I always treated it as extended universe is canon unless it contradicts the movie. The movies always take precedence.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby Quakerzilla » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:48 pm

klen7 wrote:
Quakerzilla wrote:
XvGojira wrote:Yes I know, the comic, but my rule of thumb is it ain't canon unless it is in the film itself.


What about cases like "Pacific Rim" where the writer and director both say "No, the comic is canon." ?
But the PR comic has contradictions with the film.



Where?
lhb412 wrote:^The problem is that the Godzilla script was undergoing rewrites very late in the game, and because of that the prequel comic is really a prequel to an earlier draft of the screenplay, not the movie as finished.
if the comic is any sign of things, the movie was in severe need of rewrites...



Perhaps not. Remember, the "Early" draft of the script had already been written three times over. Maybe it needed FEWER rewrites, as having too many writers brought in at different stages lead to a very disjointed story.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby XvGojira » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:47 pm

DannyBeane wrote: I always treated it as extended universe is canon unless it contradicts the movie. The movies always take precedence.


Like I said, if we were to geek out and talk about all the minutia of a film/series/whatever, I'd treat it as canon in the respect of the conversation. If I just didn't like that bit of official EU canon, as matter of personal taste, I'll ignore it or replace it with a different preferred fan canon until a sequel either solidifies the canon or alters it again.

It's like ambiguous endings, like Pan's Labyrinth or In Bruges....

Spoiler Below:
Maybe the little girl is just dead, or maybe she is the princess of some fantasy world. And perhaps Ray does die or perhaps he doesn't. It really depends on how you interpret the film and how you want it to end.


So until it's official it's up to interpretation.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby lhb412 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:23 pm

XvGojira wrote:
DannyBeane wrote: I always treated it as extended universe is canon unless it contradicts the movie. The movies always take precedence.


Like I said, if we were to geek out and talk about all the minutia of a film/series/whatever, I'd treat it as canon in the respect of the conversation. If I just didn't like that bit of official EU canon, as matter of personal taste, I'll ignore it or replace it with a different preferred fan canon until a sequel either solidifies the canon or alters it again.


Often I'll think of individual films as having a unique canon distinct from the series when it'd obvious something was retconned or amended in a further film. Example; even as a kid when I watched the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie I always thought of Shredder as dying in the end. Of course, he returns in the sequel, but I always knew it was the intent of the original film that he was dead, so when I watch that film he's dead. You can repeat for many horror and monster films, which kill then retcon the central monster's liveliness at the respective endings and beginnings of each film.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby jellydonut25 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 10:35 am

Quakerzilla wrote:
klen7 wrote:But the PR comic has contradictions with the film.



Where?

In that it's bad and the movie is good. ZING!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby eabaker » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:41 pm

lhb412 wrote:
XvGojira wrote:
DannyBeane wrote: I always treated it as extended universe is canon unless it contradicts the movie. The movies always take precedence.


Like I said, if we were to geek out and talk about all the minutia of a film/series/whatever, I'd treat it as canon in the respect of the conversation. If I just didn't like that bit of official EU canon, as matter of personal taste, I'll ignore it or replace it with a different preferred fan canon until a sequel either solidifies the canon or alters it again.


Often I'll think of individual films as having a unique canon distinct from the series when it'd obvious something was retconned or amended in a further film. Example; even as a kid when I watched the first Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie I always thought of Shredder as dying in the end. Of course, he returns in the sequel, but I always knew it was the intent of the original film that he was dead, so when I watch that film he's dead. You can repeat for many horror and monster films, which kill then retcon the central monster's liveliness at the respective endings and beginnings of each film.


Exactly. A sequel cannot really be read without the context of the original, but the original need not be read in the context of a sequel.

And as for things like comic books and other forms of expanded universe/tie-in material, I tend to think of those almost at the level of paratext; I give them about as much weight as the description on the back of a DVD case.
Last edited by eabaker on Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby Gman2887 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:43 am

eabaker wrote:And as more things like comic books and other forms of expanded universe/tie-in material, I tend to think of those almost at the level of paratext; I give them about as much wait as the description on the back of a DVD case.


Beautifully said.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby eabaker » Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:29 am

Gman2887 wrote:
eabaker wrote:And as more things like comic books and other forms of expanded universe/tie-in material, I tend to think of those almost at the level of paratext; I give them about as much wait as the description on the back of a DVD case.


Beautifully said.


Except for the bit where I used the word "more" instead of "for." :wink:
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:26 am

Don't forget wait instead of weight! :wink:
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby eabaker » Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:28 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Don't forget wait instead of weight! :wink:


Oh my God. That one is just humiliating.

What the hell?! I'm smarter than that!
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby Gman2887 » Sat Sep 05, 2015 8:47 pm

eabaker wrote:Except for the bit where I used the word "more" instead of "for." :wink:


I didn't say beautifully "written". ;)

But really I tend to look at comic book tie-ins, video game side-stories, etc, with a very cynical point of view. It's very similar to the (apparently) official viewpoint of the Star Trek franchise: If it isn't on-screen, it isn't "canon." Everything else is just a 'what-if' scenario.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby daikaijusaurus » Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:51 am

Here's some interesting concept art and information tidbits I found on an early script for Godzilla (2014).
Source: http://godzilla.wikia.com/wiki/Godzilla_(June_2012_Script)

Hokmuto concept art
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Hokmuto (4-winged) concept art
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M.U.T.O. concept art
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M.U.T.O. concept art
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Here is a list of differences between this draft and the final film:

- The atomic test in the very beginning of the movie which is gone into detail in with Godzilla: Awakening actually has a full-fledged scene instead of being part of the opening.
- Krasnokamensk, Siberia, Russia is the site where Dr. Serizawa flies to instead of the Philippines, ten years prior to the events of Godzilla.
- "Dr. Stabler" takes the place of the man who meets Serizawa and Graham in the Philippines.
- Ishiro Serizawa is called "Honda."
- Vivienne Graham doesn't appear in this draft.
- Instead of finding a giant Godzilla skeleton in the cave and 2 M.U.T.O. spores, the skeletons of giant 3 creatures (a Godzilla and 2 M.U.T.O.s) are found frozen in ice.
- Ford Brody is called "Ford Maddox" and is not in elementary school during the opening when his mother dies in the power plant; he's an 18-year old high school senior ready to go off to college.
- Elle Brody is called "Elle Maddox" and is Ford's 13-year old sister instead of his wife.
- Joseph Brody is called "Nathan Brody," is 40 years old, and is Ford's and Elle's step-father.
- Sandra Brody is called "Linda Maddox" and is 40 years old.
- The opening takes place in a suburban neighborhood in the Shakotan peninsula in Hokkaido, Japan, instead of in the fictional city of Janjira, Japan.
- The company that ran Janjira's power plant are called "Jancorp" in this script.
- The MUTOs are referred to as "Hokmuto" (male--from "Hokkaido" and "MUTO") and "Femuto" (female--from "female" and "MUTO").
- Akio, the Hawaiian boy Ford protects in the final film, is called "Ichiro" in this script and is Japanese.
- In this draft, Godzilla is explicitly mentioned to be 600 feet tall (182 meters).
- The 'Hokmuto' is defeated [not killed] early on, outmatched by Godzilla as it was hunting alone instead of in a pair with a female. So, Hokmuto turns himself into a chrysalis where later on it breaks free and has grown 4 wings.
- Godzilla uses his Atomic Breath for the first time against the male MUTO instead of the female MUTO.
- Godzilla rips off one of the male MUTO's wings.
- In this draft, only the female MUTO has EMP powers, and whenever the female is close, Godzilla cannot breathe his atomic breath.
- Instead of impaling the 3-winged Hokmuto with a broken building, Godzilla crushes the Hokmuto's head with a strong bite.
- Instead of firing down his Atomic Breath down the female MUTO's mouth in a "Kiss of Death," Godzilla cuts off the Femuto's head clean off her neck with his claws.


It's funny how a lot of this stuff sounds like it would've been better than the final script that we got. Oh well, I still love the movie :D
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby klen7 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 11:04 am

i think the only thing from that list that i would have preferred to see in the movie than what we got was the MUTO naming being made clearer
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby daikaijusaurus » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:30 pm

I loved the opening credits of Godzilla (2014). But, I still would've liked some more time in the 50s, possibly exploring more of Godzilla's origins or background. So this is something I wish they would've kept from the early draft.

I also feel that it would've been better if Ford and Elle had been siblings instead of husband and wife. The whole "gotta get home to the wife and kid" motivation didn't work too well for me. I mean it was okay, just not great. But If they were siblings then maybe a deeper family connection/conflict/struggle would've worked better with their father, and possibly given Cranston a lot more screen time.

And finally, I've seen so many concept art of the mutos over the past year, and many of them I feel would've worked a lot better that what we actually got. Particularly this one:

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This is actually pretty amazing! Why the heck did they change him?! :x
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby klen7 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:26 pm

daikaijusaurus wrote:The whole "gotta get home to the wife and kid" motivation didn't work too well for me. I mean it was okay, just not great. But If they were siblings then maybe a deeper family connection/conflict/struggle would've worked better with their father, and possibly given Cranston a lot more screen time.
As a father, if something liked this happened, not even Godzilla himself could keep me from trying to get back to my kid. My siblings would be on their own.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby daikaijusaurus » Wed Sep 09, 2015 2:48 pm

klen7 wrote: As a father, if something liked this happened, not even Godzilla himself could keep me from trying to get back to my kid. My siblings would be on their own.


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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby jellydonut25 » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:23 pm

Yeah, I'm with klen. I've already hurt myself physically to keep my kids from falling or getting hurt. I used to actively attempt to injur my siblings.
The bigger issue is that it doesn't seem like Ford really wants to get to his kid. He'd rather parachute into a monster fight.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby MekaGojira3k » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:52 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Yeah, I'm with klen. I've already hurt myself physically to keep my kids from falling or getting hurt. I used to actively attempt to injur my kids.
The bigger issue is that it doesn't seem like Ford really wants to get to his kid. He'd rather parachute into a monster fight.


The bigger issue is that Ford is a black hole of characterization.
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby klen7 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:55 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I used to actively attempt to injur my kids.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
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Re: TALKBACK: Godzilla (2014) - (OBVIOUS SPOILER DISCUSSION)

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:50 pm

klen7 wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:I used to actively attempt to injur my kids.
:shock: :shock: :shock:

Siblings.
I meant siblings.

My kids are actively interfering with my brain.
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