Godzilla, Corny To The Max.

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Postby kidnicky » Sat Jul 16, 2005 1:53 pm

MouthForWar wrote:I still think Godzilla vs. the Smog Monster rules. Tanaka didn't like it because it was so much different, not because it was a bad film. In fact, Banno was never fired from Toho, he just wasn't allowed to do another Godzilla because his vision was different from what Tanaka wanted. There was never any "bad blood," Banno cleared all this up at G-Fest.


It's one of my all-time favorites.
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Postby Xenorama » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:03 pm

he's right to an extent- Godzilla movies, even the first one, will always be viewed by some narrow minded people as "corny" or "cheezy". i think every director treated Godzilla with respect (except in '98, but you can hardly call him a director). i doubt Honda hated the stuff Eiji put in there, but he probably didn't like it. he couldn't put his foot down though, Eiji was far too powerful at the time.
and Honda directed the effects scenes in GODZILLA'S REVENGE, which including various wrestling moves and such.

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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:07 pm

walshbeme wrote:Are you saying any G film other than the original wasn't treated with respect?


If I meant that, I would have said it outright.

walshbeme wrote:I don't think it was ever the intent of Tsuburaya or Banno (or even Fukuda) to disrespect Godzilla or the audience. Godzilla has always appealed to young people and they all recognized this, even Honda.


Then why did Honda react with disgust when shown a clip of the shie dance during an interview in the early 90's? It was his opinion that Godzilla should have remained a serious character.

Of course, you can't do 28 films without broadening the character. IMO, some humor is fine, but what Mouthforwar said was that Godzilla as a concept in general was corny -- as though there was no other way to percieve the character, and to me that's BS.

Godzilla has versatility -- it just so happens that most directors put him in a comedic light. But Honda's, Kaneko's and even Tezuka's (Kiryu series) versions of G prove that the monster can play straight and be effective.
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:21 pm

Megaloman wrote:he's right to an extent- Godzilla movies, even the first one, will always be viewed by some narrow minded people as "corny" or "cheezy".


Anyone can think anything is cheesy, but that doesn't make it true. When I saw a screening of Kong '33 in Film Studies, some people laughed at the the film. Is classic Kong cheesy? Some people laughed at Schindler's List, so is that movie cheesy? Since when do the perceptions of attention-seeking hecklers prove a movie's worth?

Megaloman wrote:i doubt Honda hated the stuff Eiji put in there.


He did hate it.

Megaloman wrote:he couldn't put his foot down though, Eiji was far too powerful at the time.


Ishiro had power, but was too non-confrontational for his own good. He was an A-list money director who carried on like he was still a B-team assistant. His lack of ego was Godzilla's downfall. He should have gone ballistic Kurosawa-style about the monster's integrity, but he didn't, and the Toho machine just rolled over him until he became a TV director. Nice guys finish last, and all that.

Megaloman wrote:Honda directed the effects scenes in GODZILLA'S REVENGE, which including various wrestling moves and such.


At this point, Honda gave up on his own visions, and just 'did a job' concerning the monsters.
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Postby armandv » Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:48 pm

GodzillaKOTM wrote: Tomoyuki Tanaka is rolling around in his grave right now...



Some wag at G-FEST said that Tanaka's remains are going to rise up and try to stop Banno. :lol:
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Postby Danny B » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:04 pm

^Nice. :lol: I could see that happening too.
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 4:10 pm

armandv wrote:Some wag at G-FEST said that Tanaka's remains are going to rise up and try to stop Banno. :lol:


LAND OF THE RISING DEAD :lol:
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Postby MouthForWar » Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:23 pm

Goji66 wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:Godzilla in general, is corny (which IS a good thing), deal with it.


Sorry, but that's a load of crap. A serious Godzilla film can be taken seriously. Any sci-fi that gets treated with respect can find a respectful audience. It's all about the approach.

Banno's vision of Godzilla is corny, but Honda's wasn't. As for G's Showa goofiness, that was Tsuburaya's fault - Honda hated the boulder tossing and shie dancing nonsense, and should have put his foot down against it.


Honda's wasn't? Don't forget, he did King Kong vs. Godzilla (which is just as much intentionally funny as a comedy as it is a sci-fi/action movie), Godzilla's Revenge (which was ONLY made because of Honda and Tsubaraya's love for children), Monster Zero, etc. Are you honestly telling me these movies don't have good heaps of tongue in cheek humor or an appeal to young kids? Honda pushed for the humor as much as anyone else at Toho. And in fact, Smog Monster was the darkest, strongest and most messed up Godzilla film from the Showa series, next to only the original (it was actually the darkness and how graphic GvsSM was that made Tanaka mad- not the cheesiness, with the exception of only the flying scene.)

Way to take movies about giant monsters waaaay too seriously. They can still have a message, still have action and fights, and still be FUN TO WATCH you know. I love the "cheesiness" and most other fans do. Its what gives this genre its charm and sets it apart from other sci-fi genres.
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:58 pm

MouthForWar wrote:Honda's wasn't? Don't forget, he did King Kong vs. Godzilla (which is just as much intentionally funny as a comedy as it is a sci-fi/action movie)


Yes, it was an intentional comedy, but Honda made Godzilla serious again in G vs Mothra 64. He was more comfortable keeping the anti-atomic message alive than providing mindless entertainment. In the 1st half of the Golden Era, the majority of his films were serious sci-fi.

MouthForWar wrote:Are you honestly telling me these movies don't have good heaps of tongue in cheek humor or an appeal to young kids?


When did I claim this? I already said humor exists in the canon - didn't you read that? That doesn't mean it's the end all, though. I already gave examples of Godzilla films where camp didn't exist by naming the directors - Honda (G'54), Kaneko (GMK) and Tezuka (Kiryu series). Might as well add Okawara too (Destroyah). There room for everything -- humorous films and serious ones, NOT necessarily one or the other, get it?

MouthForWar wrote:Honda pushed for the humor as much as anyone else at Toho.


I doubt you can prove this. As I already mentioned, Honda himself dissed the kaiju humor in a 90's interview.

MouthForWar wrote:And in fact, Smog Monster was the darkest, strongest and most messed up Godzilla film from the Showa series, next to only the original


I like Smog Monster's darker qualities, and resent the fact that Banno and Nakano chickened out to the Champion festival and camped it up. Take away the music, the flying scene and other camp nonsense and G vs Hedorah is actually a great film. It's one of my favorites from the Showa era despite its faults.

MouthForWar wrote:Way to take movies about giant monsters waaaay too seriously.


Save the sanctimonious crap for somebody else, will you? I said humor can be fine over the course of 28 films. That means I actually think some Godzilla movies CAN BE FUN and lighthearted. But you said that's ALL Godzilla is about, which is BS.
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Postby Xenorama » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:01 pm

gee, i found GMK to contain many campy (ie, unintentionally funny, as camp is defined) moments. so much for that being a serious movie.

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Postby godzillamaster66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:06 pm

^ Finally, someone who also thinks this. GMK isn't the best film, but it is way over rated. Hell, on one Amazon list that listed them from best to worst GMK was first, right sbove the original! Shusuke KAneko is waaaaay too over rated, his films aren't that good, are they?
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 7:07 pm

Megaloman wrote:gee, i found GMK to contain many campy (ie, unintentionally funny, as camp is defined) moments. so much for that being a serious movie.


Again, I guess a film about the Holocaust is campy too, since I've definitely seen some audiences laughing their asses of at Shindler's List.

So much for anything being serious, right?
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Postby Xenorama » Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:44 pm

humor is in the eye of the beholder, i guess. people think Family Guy, mst or Full House have true humor in them. there were not too many things in GMK that made me laugh, most of it made me wish the movie was shorter. it's an adequately entertaining movie, that's all.

what kind of audiences are you hanging out in that find Shindler's List humorous? i don't know i'd stay in that theater for very long!

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Postby kidnicky » Sat Jul 16, 2005 8:46 pm

In fairness,Schindler's List doesn't have a WWE title bout between two dinosaurs in a gravel pit. I do like GMK,but it isn't my #1 pick,and it certainly isn't as serious as some would have you believe.
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 9:19 pm

Megaloman wrote:what kind of audiences are you hanging out in that find Shindler's List humorous? i don't know i'd stay in that theater for very long!


It was the younger portion of the audience at the time. You know, the kind of suburban snots who come downtown to make noise at anything. It doesn't matter that two dinosaurs aren't fighting in a pit, people can laugh at anything out of context or even IN context depending how emotionally removed they are from the narrative. Steven Spielberg was actually disturbed that high school kids were laughing at his Holocaust film, going so far as to do lectures in California high schools in an attempt to give those kids a sense of historical context. Prior to that, they viewed it (according to your definition) as camp.

Just as there are people who are actually cold enough to laugh at rape scenarios (such as what's seen in the original Death Wish -- and yes, I've heard people laugh to one another about the woman getting spray-painted, so does that make it camp?), there are those who can take sci-fi/fantasy material seriously when the intent is there. So 'forest for the trees' arguments about camp are relative.

A guy dressed in a bat suit, or a giant gorilla can be taken seriously if the movie so intends (Batman Begins and King Kong) regardless of whether or not the attention-seeking hecklers would agree with that. Same applies to GMK or any G-film with a serious theme.
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Postby Xenorama » Sat Jul 16, 2005 10:56 pm

i remember seeing CLOCKWORK ORANGE at University of Colorado and many of the audience cheered the Droogs attack on the old man. i'm familiar with tasteless audiences.

still doesn't mean GMK didn't have unintended humor. i'd use this also as an example- at the end of GODZILLA when Dr. Yamane says "there may be more monsters" (i know, it's not the exact quote, sue me) and present day audiences bust out because we have knowledge of 50 years of sequels. it's intended as a warning, but do to circumstances far beyond the filmmakers control it's a very funny line nowadays.

there are people who think Yoda bouncing around like a rubber ball isn't incredibly funny as well.

i'm not really disagreeing with you about movies being serious or not, but just because the makers intended it to be serious doesn't mean it will be taken that way- Ed Wood wasn't making his movies to be laughed at, don'tcha know!

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Postby kidnicky » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:08 pm

Megaloman wrote:i remember seeing CLOCKWORK ORANGE at University of Colorado and many of the audience cheered the Droogs attack on the old man. i'm familiar with tasteless audiences.

still doesn't mean GMK didn't have unintended humor. i'd use this also as an example- at the end of GODZILLA when Dr. Yamane says "there may be more monsters" (i know, it's not the exact quote, sue me) and present day audiences bust out because we have knowledge of 50 years of sequels. it's intended as a warning, but do to circumstances far beyond the filmmakers control it's a very funny line nowadays.

there are people who think Yoda bouncing around like a rubber ball isn't incredibly funny as well.

i'm not really disagreeing with you about movies being serious or not, but just because the makers intended it to be serious doesn't mean it will be taken that way- Ed Wood wasn't making his movies to be laughed at, don'tcha know!

David


I've always thought GMK's Baragon vs. Goji fight was MEANT to be funny,kind of a nod to those who prefer a funnier,"zanier" kaiju fight.
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Postby Goji66 » Sat Jul 16, 2005 11:40 pm

kidnicky wrote:I've always thought GMK's Baragon vs. Goji fight was MEANT to be funny,kind of a nod to those who prefer a funnier,"zanier" kaiju fight.


Didn't that fight cause a female audience member at the Sony screening to cry in sympathy for Baragon? She wasn't looking for something 'zany' in the scene, but was emotionally invested in the action. That's part of my argument - if you detach yourself emotionally, you can find anything funny if you try. Conversely, if you invest and immerse yourself into a narrative, you'll get the intended response. I think GMK's effect on that woman (who was an unbiased non-kaiju expert I presume) was more in line with Kaneko's intent than your reaction (a jaded kaiju fan I presume :wink: ).

This is what separates GMK from something like G x Megaguirus, where the monsters take obvious comical swats at one another -- now THAT'S campy. I doubt that woman would shed a tear watching Megaguiras stooge-slap Godzilla like Moe and Curly... no matter how emotionally invested she was in the film.

See? Same character (Godzilla) but different themes, different responses.

Class dismissed. :teach:
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:21 am

Someone cried for Baragon. HAHAHAHA. That fight was meant to be campy fun. Just look at the helicopter guys narrating the fight, like they do in wrestling and boxing, and what not. Kaneko himself said that whole fight was a nod to the older stuff. His Fangoria interview a few years back, just after he did Cross Fire went into great detail about this. Its not that we are "detatched", its just that we know what movies to take really seriously (dramas, war movies) and what ones to kick back and have fun with (monster movies, sci fi/horror, etc.)
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Postby kidnicky » Sun Jul 17, 2005 1:34 am

I am a fan of the kaiju genre,it's not that I CAN'T take things seriously,like your average "I can see the zippers" tool,it's just that I felt THAT scene was meant to be funny. Rest assured that when these types of things are done in a way I feel is serious,like the Heisei Gamera,or the better portions of the Heisei Godzilla,I'm totally into them. Even at the end of GMK,I was on the edge of my seat. But like Mouthforwar said,in the gravel scene,Good Ol' J.R. and the King were calling the play by play!
What are we even talking about anyway? Oh yeah,this movie will be corny.
Well,I'm sort of assuming a 3-D IMAX feature called Godzilla:3-D To The Max is going to be more of a fun 45 minute thrill ride with crazy fun action then an actual "film". More like "Captain EO",for those of you who have been to Epcot.
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Postby ryuuseipro » Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:22 am

kidnicky wrote:I am a fan of the kaiju genre,it's not that I CAN'T take things seriously,like your average "I can see the zippers" tool,it's just that I felt THAT scene was meant to be funny. Rest assured that when these types of things are done in a way I feel is serious,like the Heisei Gamera,or the better portions of the Heisei Godzilla,I'm totally into them. Even at the end of GMK,I was on the edge of my seat. But like Mouthforwar said,in the gravel scene,Good Ol' J.R. and the King were calling the play by play!
What are we even talking about anyway? Oh yeah,this movie will be corny.
Well,I'm sort of assuming a 3-D IMAX feature called Godzilla:3-D To The Max is going to be more of a fun 45 minute thrill ride with crazy fun action then an actual "film". More like "Captain EO",for those of you who have been to Epcot.


You're reading the post of someone who went there!

On my trip to Disneyworld in October 1986 (I had a great time, BTW!), my family and I went to Epcot Center to see Captain EO (which was heavily advertised back then), and I loved it! I was really phased by the 3D (which didn't have blue & red lenses, and were almost like polarized shades)! It was basically visual magic, as though the visuals on the screen were actually reaching out from the screen. A great time to be had at the theater. They really need to put this on DVD one day.
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Postby Goji66 » Sun Jul 17, 2005 11:48 am

MouthForWar wrote:Someone cried for Baragon. HAHAHAHA...


Yeah, someone got into the film. Imagine that. She didn't frame the scene in some 'it's meant to be this' postmodern geek fashion.

MouthForWar wrote:Its not that we are "detatched"


Yes, you are, by choice. You decided to affect yourself upon the movie rather than have the movie affect you. Lot's of people do that as a way to be 'cool'.

MouthForWar wrote:its just that we know what movies to take really seriously (dramas, war movies) and what ones to kick back and have fun with (monster movies, sci fi/horror, etc.)


You sound awfully programmed to me. I tend to look beyond the labels regardless of the art form, but that's just me. If you like your viewing experience to be so rigidly categorized, fine, it's not like it's of any consequence.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:36 pm

Since when does not taking a movie way too seriously mean it can't affect you? In fact, a film like GMK is better rounded if it can have a good impacting message (which it does), and a bit of campiness of the old stuff as a feeling of nostalgia thrown it. GMK is great because it covers all ground in the genre. Its got the seriousness, the campiness, the messages, the action, the effects, its got everything that makes a great kaiju movie. You can get into the movie and still laugh, and you can get into the movie without crying and taking it too seriously either. You talk like you know us, saying we're detatched because we don't cry during monster movies and blah blah blah. That's why nobody is taking you seriously. I've been watching these movies for almost 20 years, and I own them all, so don't tell me I'm detatched or I don't "get it" or I don't get "INTO THE PART" or whatever nonsense you're mouthing off. Cuz I know for damn sure that every time I watch one of these movies, I'm on the edge of my seat and totally into it. When I saw Final Wars in the theater, you could have shot me in the leg and I wouldn't have noticed.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:40 pm

kidnicky wrote:I am a fan of the kaiju genre,it's not that I CAN'T take things seriously,like your average "I can see the zippers" tool,it's just that I felt THAT scene was meant to be funny. Rest assured that when these types of things are done in a way I feel is serious,like the Heisei Gamera,or the better portions of the Heisei Godzilla,I'm totally into them. Even at the end of GMK,I was on the edge of my seat. But like Mouthforwar said,in the gravel scene,Good Ol' J.R. and the King were calling the play by play!
.


Exactly. We know when its serious and when its not, don't talk to us like we're idiots.
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Postby neo godzilla jr » Sun Jul 17, 2005 7:49 pm

Goji66 wrote:
armandv wrote:Some wag at G-FEST said that Tanaka's remains are going to rise up and try to stop Banno. :lol:


LAND OF THE RISING DEAD :lol:


While we're at it, let's clone Sekizawa, Kamura and Honda. We need a few good G-men...

BTW, I don't see how anyone could find Schindler's List. I was in tears through out the entire movie. Remeber when flakes started falling on Liam 1/2 way through the movie? I though it was snow for a minute...upon my realization, I did my best not to vomit.
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