Toho should replace the man in a suit effects with CGI...

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Toho should replace the man in a suit effects with CGI...

Postby TerranigmaFreak » Sun Nov 02, 2008 4:08 pm

...When they animate water.

Ok, I'm kidding... sort of.

Let's talk Godzilla, and I don't mean the movies, I mean Godzilla himself. For years, the series has the stigma of man in a rubber suit, and I guess it kind of annoys me sometimes, but even I can see they still need work. I don't mean replacing the suit with CGI, unless it's a scene that they absolutely cannot achieve using suits, what I mean is make Godzilla a suit, yet no one would ever gripe about it. Think about The Predator, isn't he just a man in a suit? How come nobody ever gripes about that? I think it's partly because he's believable and also very complex.

Ever notice Godzilla can't move his neck? Compare his neck movement to that of Heisei Gamera. Gamera's a dude in a suit, and budget's lower, yet Gamera can move his neck. You may think this is silly, but Godzilla's stiff head works against it. He can occasionally look up and down, but that's about it. Having more motion just brings every part of him to life. He's a living creature. Other subtle gestures like blinking also helps. Again, see Heisei Gamera.

The other motion based issue is moving like a man in a suit. I think there's a lot of subtlety that people don't pick up, but subconsciously associate that with humanoid movement. This of course, seems to be more of an issue with the actor than anything. In GxMG, remember the part when Kiryu plunges a knife and shocks Godzilla? Later, Godzilla pulls out the knife and throws it back. That looks exactly like a man. It killed the illusion of him big a radioactive dino. I don't buy the crap about giving him human characteristic, not when it's motion based. Humans can do a lot of hand movements because that's what we are. No animal has that kind of flexibility. Godzilla may be fantasy, but he can be believable if you apply some thought into it. Just cause he's possessed by the spirits of soldiers doesn't mean his skeletal structure allows that kind of movement. If you just use the fantasy excuse, you shouldn't complain about Godzilla's super jump kick, or perhaps the next Godzilla will have him fly by spinning his tale while singing the theme song of Gilligan's Island. Look, it's fantasy, so it's all ok!

Size does matter! This is a genre about giant monsters, and they should look gigantic. I don't think I'm asking for too much. Despite the extra tech, Godzilla still hasn't really captured the feeling of size on screen. Gamera 3 did it flawlessly, whereas G1 had 2 shots and none in G2. GMK and Tokyo SOS kind of got it, but neither were as consistent as G3. It can be done with a rubber suit. G1 had this shot where Gamera and Gyaos seem to stretch into the sky in broad daylight. That shot wowed me. We need more of that in Godzilla.

Rodan has been perfected in Final Wars. I forced myself to watch that movie again after the Godzillathon, and was completely blown away by Rodan. His wing flaps are powerful and creates thrust and speed. There's no need to improve Rodan.

I'll post more after this thread has been turned into a full blown fight.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:15 pm

If they stick with suits they will have to become much better...ala Stan Winston's Studios or something because the current ones wont do for a major motion picture, they'd be fine for an Ultraman show or something. I think people forget that suitmation was a cost-cutting measure...not the film makers first choice...I think if the original creators were alive today they'd feel a variety of of techniques should all be used in conjunction with each other. Really I think the problem is the budget....just not large enough to do anything creative frankly...thats why we get the same luke warm garbage recycled again and again....I think the one chance we will ever get for a drastic re-haul to the franchise was the American film...I have my doubts to whether or not we will ever again see a quality kaiju film even attempted. Not that I can blame them...the box office returns really dont justify spending alot of time, money and talent into a new film. Plus in order for it to succeed risks need to be taken, whether or not it means a darker film or whatever is beside the point....I'm cynical when it comes to this genre...I have my nostalgia towards the showa films but have no hope when it comes to the future of Godzilla...the franchise needs new ideas I hate how cliche its becoming to re-boot things but if there's a genre that sorely needs it its this one. We have the showa films, there not going anywhere...now lets try and channel the awe and wonder of that era onto screens today. Godzilla needs to look real, and be horrifying....you can stick him in whatever type of film you want ( sci-fi, horror...) but he as a character should be treated with respect and attention...I rant...I know where this is going...some may be on my side, some wont be...most wont care enough to reply...this is an old argument fitting because old seems to be the key describing adjective to Godzilla these days.
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Postby TerranigmaFreak » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:26 pm

The Heisei Gamera movies have an even smaller budget and they were able to do a few interesting things with the suits. I'm more interested in the suits. The heart of what makes Godzilla... Godzilla.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Nov 02, 2008 5:31 pm

True because Gamera is a smaller commodity...you can take more risk and the company that owns Gamera is much less intrusive than Toho when it comes to creativity...Toho seems to want to just pump movies out to meet release dates...if they are aiming to be comprable to American studios then in this way they are a success. But...I agree, in Gamera 2 especially the animatronics in the hero Gamera (puppet?) provide alot of nice touches and the mixing of techniques in Gamera 3 provides a nice expierience because they flow together so seamlessly. But I diagree...Godzilla doesnt need to be a suit to be Godzilla, just as Dracula doesnt need to be Bela Lugosi to be Dracula...sure he was great and will always have a place in history but we've been there, done that, lets try something else.
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Postby ryuuseipro » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:06 pm

The reason isn't budget per se, but also time (definitely a factor). And the fact that the Japanese entertainment industry is not union-based is also a factor. (Tsuburaya Productions is the most consistent of these companies, considering that they're chiefly a SPFX studio.)

I personally don't worry about such things. I could hardly care less if people want these films to live up to Hollywood standards, because fans tend to be worried about what America will say about these films (after decades of being called "cheesy" and "campy", etc., by cynical critics). I don't care what Mainstream America thinks. I have always enjoyed these productions, partly because America lacks the one thing the Japanese have had in spades: Imagination.
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Postby TerranigmaFreak » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:29 pm

I don't mean for "mainstream" audience, I mean improving it for those of us who loves this stuff too. It just bugs me that Walking With Dinosaurs can use hand puppets (although the show is bigger budget) for live action and still look damn good. I mean, at the very least, we should expect something relatively almost kind of up to date. I don't mean big budget crazy CGI feasts like today's movies, but just try to advance the stuff a little. Like move from Showa to Heisei, Heisei to Millennium kind of steps forward. Avoid things that don't work by simply not filming them. Like water dripping from Godzilla's mouth as he rises from the bay in Tokyo SOS completely kills the illusion of size due to the water droplets.

The reason isn't budget per se, but also time (definitely a factor). And the fact that the Japanese entertainment industry is not union-based is also a factor. (Tsuburaya Productions is the most consistent of these companies, considering that they're chiefly a SPFX studio.)


Can you explain what you mean by that? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't get what you mean. I know what a union does... it just doesn't make sense how they could effect the quality of the shots. Again, look at G3. I don't think Kaneko's team has a union either.
Last edited by TerranigmaFreak on Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:30 pm

I am a deffinite cynic and you are right that the Japanese films have a much better sense of imagination..but the recent crop of films are just micro-waved left overs from the showa days done in a rushed fashion with micro budgets. I dont want Daikaiju cinema "Americanized"....I just want decent films. Whatever makes the rest of fandom happy though because I have pretty much lost faith in ever seeing such a film out of Toho.
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Postby ryuuseipro » Sun Nov 02, 2008 11:24 pm

TerranigmaFreak wrote:I don't mean for "mainstream" audience, I mean improving it for those of us who loves this stuff too. It just bugs me that Walking With Dinosaurs can use hand puppets (although the show is bigger budget) for live action and still look damn good. I mean, at the very least, we should expect something relatively almost kind of up to date. I don't mean big budget crazy CGI feasts like today's movies, but just try to advance the stuff a little. Like move from Showa to Heisei, Heisei to Millennium kind of steps forward. Avoid things that don't work by simply not filming them. Like water dripping from Godzilla's mouth as he rises from the bay in Tokyo SOS completely kills the illusion of size due to the water droplets.

The reason isn't budget per se, but also time (definitely a factor). And the fact that the Japanese entertainment industry is not union-based is also a factor. (Tsuburaya Productions is the most consistent of these companies, considering that they're chiefly a SPFX studio.)


Can you explain what you mean by that? I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I honestly don't get what you mean. I know what a union does... it just doesn't make sense how they could effect the quality of the shots. Again, look at G3. I don't think Kaneko's team has a union either.


Of course not. But Daiei had a bit more time under their belt, despite the smaller budget. This is not Toho, which is a very conservative studio.
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Postby kidnicky » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:25 am

Hey,you know what we should talk about again? How some of us think Godzilla should be all CGI,and some of us think he should still be a suit.
"I think Godzilla should be CGI cause Americans give dark moar respect!!!!!1!!"
"No wai,Godzilla should be a guy in a suit because when I was a kid I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow!!!1!!"

What is the point?

BTW,when Godzilla threw the knife away I just thought it was funny and laughed. I liked the scene. :P
It's not like these movies are ever going to have effects that are even within 20 years of being up to date,so why get excited about it?
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Postby DannyBeane » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:37 am

kidnicky wrote:Hey,you know what we should talk about again? How some of us think Godzilla should be all CGI,and some of us think he should still be a suit.
"I think Godzilla should be CGI cause Americans give dark moar respect!!!!!1!!"
"No wai,Godzilla should be a guy in a suit because when I was a kid I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow!!!1!!"

What is the point?

BTW,when Godzilla threw the knife away I just thought it was funny and laughed. I liked the scene. :P
It's not like these movies are ever going to have effects that are even within 20 years of being up to date,so why get excited about it?

Godzilla should be a life size remote control robot.
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Postby kidnicky » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:19 pm

ALLOSAURZ wrote:
kidnicky wrote:Hey,you know what we should talk about again? How some of us think Godzilla should be all CGI,and some of us think he should still be a suit.
"I think Godzilla should be CGI cause Americans give dark moar respect!!!!!1!!"
"No wai,Godzilla should be a guy in a suit because when I was a kid I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow!!!1!!"

What is the point?

BTW,when Godzilla threw the knife away I just thought it was funny and laughed. I liked the scene. :P
It's not like these movies are ever going to have effects that are even within 20 years of being up to date,so why get excited about it?

Godzilla should be a life size remote control robot.


"Lifesize" like the size of a suit actor,or "lifesize" like as big as the real Godzilla would really be? Wouldn't that be Mechagodzilla?
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Postby DannyBeane » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:29 pm

kidnicky wrote:
ALLOSAURZ wrote:
kidnicky wrote:Hey,you know what we should talk about again? How some of us think Godzilla should be all CGI,and some of us think he should still be a suit.
"I think Godzilla should be CGI cause Americans give dark moar respect!!!!!1!!"
"No wai,Godzilla should be a guy in a suit because when I was a kid I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow!!!1!!"

What is the point?

BTW,when Godzilla threw the knife away I just thought it was funny and laughed. I liked the scene. :P
It's not like these movies are ever going to have effects that are even within 20 years of being up to date,so why get excited about it?

Godzilla should be a life size remote control robot.


"Lifesize" like the size of a suit actor,or "lifesize" like as big as the real Godzilla would really be? Wouldn't that be Mechagodzilla?


I want my own personal Mechagodzilla damn it!
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Postby BruceAReville » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:50 pm

ALLOSAURZ wrote:
kidnicky wrote:
ALLOSAURZ wrote:
kidnicky wrote:Hey,you know what we should talk about again? How some of us think Godzilla should be all CGI,and some of us think he should still be a suit.
"I think Godzilla should be CGI cause Americans give dark moar respect!!!!!1!!"
"No wai,Godzilla should be a guy in a suit because when I was a kid I had to walk uphill both ways in the snow!!!1!!"

What is the point?

BTW,when Godzilla threw the knife away I just thought it was funny and laughed. I liked the scene. :P
It's not like these movies are ever going to have effects that are even within 20 years of being up to date,so why get excited about it?

Godzilla should be a life size remote control robot.


"Lifesize" like the size of a suit actor,or "lifesize" like as big as the real Godzilla would really be? Wouldn't that be Mechagodzilla?


I want my own personal Mechagodzilla damn it!


I want one to! :shock:
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Postby TerranigmaFreak » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:41 pm

I'd like a big puppet. The same kind they used to make the Aliens come to life. It's not a suit, not a robot, or is it CGI.
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Postby HydroGojira » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:28 pm

how about a anime
I don't understand how there is no godzilla anime anywhere
it seriously boggles my mind

not even a goofy/showa godzilla anime

though I'm hoping more for a dark serious anime when I make this suggestion


Considering the way TOHO operates, I don't want to see cgi, it will look unpolished, unfinished and very dissapointing after waiting 10 years
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Postby Legion » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:47 pm

Toho doesn't want there to be a Godzilla anime. If they wanted one they probably would have made one a long time ago.

Not that I disagree. Live action is where Godzilla should stay.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:58 pm

I've never really understood the desire for a Godzilla anime. GINO's animated show does gives us a decent ride, but I really admire these sort of stories for the spfx work and whatnot. Not saying I'm against any route such as this, I just feel like part of what made me like the character in the first place would be lost.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:09 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:I've never really understood the desire for a Godzilla anime. GINO's animated show does gives us a decent ride, but I really admire these sort of stories for the spfx work and whatnot. Not saying I'm against any route such as this, I just feel like part of what made me like the character in the first place would be lost.


100% agreed
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Postby Benjamin Haines » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:11 pm

If Toho made a Godzilla anime, I wouldn't bother to watch it.
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Postby lhb412 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 4:43 pm

I think Godzilla being an all-CGI character is inevitable, but I also believe that (like in his cameo in Always 2) he will be immediately recognizable as Godzilla, unlike GINO.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:42 pm

I pray he will never go all-CGI. Instead, I'd much prefer to see the technique they're using for Where the Wild Things Are - suits overlayed with some CG touch-ups.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Tue Jun 23, 2009 7:03 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:I pray he will never go all-CGI. Instead, I'd much prefer to see the technique they're using for Where the Wild Things Are - suits overlayed with some CG touch-ups.


Yep...this seems the way to go to me...I fear another Godzilla which resembles a spindly lizard...I want Godzilla to walk up right like a man...I don't care how impossible it is...just one more think you can file under the giant blanket of G-Cells baby...why don't his bones break walking like that, how does his blood get pumped...all of these questions can be answered with G-Cells...his body is in a constant state of tearing down and building up...his bones probably resemble steel or titanium and his heart is probably something that science can barely fathom...

I'm just saying...I'd hate for a new series of films to adhere to closely to science or what they "think" modern audiences want...I don't want a smaller Godzilla who resembles a T-rex....I want Godzilla...
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Postby BrollySupersj » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:53 am

I will only tolerate a full CGI Godzilla if it's a movie in the US, cause that's what we're good at. But so long as Godzilla stays rightfully Japan's, I want them to keep it up with suits.

If it ain't broken, don't fix it. :D
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Postby Destroysall » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:11 am

BrollySupersj wrote:If it ain't broken, don't fix it. :D


Exactly! I personally don't believe Godzilla should be in CGI, him being a suit is what gives Godzilla life! It adds to the authenticity of Godzilla! Sure, CGI is a really beautiful form of art, and I will always welcome it. However, when you can make something like a suit look so real and awesome, I love it! It makes it a genuine art! Its like a previous discussion held here about 2012, many were saying how they prefer models, and I do as well, I believe it adds authenticity overall and is a beautiful form of art! :D

But hey, an opinion is an opinion, and if someone wishes to see CGI, I'm not gonna crush their dream. :)

kiryugoji04 wrote:I pray he will never go all-CGI. Instead, I'd much prefer to see the technique they're using for Where the Wild Things Are - suits overlayed with some CG touch-ups.


I agree with you there as well! I wouldn't mind that at all! :D
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Postby Benjamin Haines » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:21 am

People who want Godzilla to go all-CGI seem to have this idea of Godzilla looking real in the same way as the CGI in something like Jurassic Park or Transformers. That'll never happen. No American studio is going to touch Godzilla again. If any Godzilla movies are ever made in the future, they're going to be made by Toho, so any all-CGI Godzilla is going to look incredibly underwhelming. Imagine a full-length film featuring the CGI Godzilla from the beginning of Always 2. It's not going to be a pretty sight, no matter how many neck-twitchings or other lifelike ticks they give him.
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