Fan Boys have to get hurt..in order for a Epic Godzilla

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Postby MouthForWar » Fri May 23, 2008 4:15 am

Ben, I really can't add much to that post. Amen, brother. Preach it.

To me, the people wanting Godzilla to be mainstream and "serious" are the ones that either don't understand the films or are ashamed of liking them. For me, the fact that they aren't mainstream is part of the appeal. None of my favorite films and film makers (Kurosawa, Scorsese, Cronenberg, Lynch, Kubrick, Romero, Carpenter, etc.) have done what's expected of them or what's going to make the most people happy, and neither has Toho with the series, especially when Tsuburaya, Honda and Tanaka were at the helm. Those guys were willing to go anywhere and do anything and turn the franchise on its head with each film. That's what true artists do.

When Toho DID start trying to make everyone happy and do what's expected of them like good little dogs, the movies got boring and formulaic (see later Heisei series and ALL of the Millenium series). It was always the same monsters and the same plotline because they were afraid to try new things. They were trying to appeal to everybody and become more mainstream and it made the movies DULL.
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Postby Legion » Fri May 23, 2008 8:30 am

MouthForWar wrote:When Toho DID start trying to make everyone happy and do what's expected of them like good little dogs, the movies got boring and formulaic (see later Heisei series and ALL of the Millenium series). It was always the same monsters and the same plotline because they were afraid to try new things. They were trying to appeal to everybody and become more mainstream and it made the movies DULL.


So the reason the Godzilla series is dead right now is because of the repetitive, more-of-the-same later Heisei and Millennium films and not the classic Showa films?

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Bravo! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Now to be fair, I don't dislike any of these later films but blaming the current status of Godzilla on the Showa series and the fans of those films is really the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

We're all awaiting your rebuttal, Whopper Jr. with Cheese.
Last edited by Legion on Fri May 23, 2008 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby KaijuHQ » Fri May 23, 2008 10:23 am

Benjamin Haines, can I have your autograph?
:clap: :clap: :clap:

BTW, Whopper Jr. with Cheese... classic! :lol:
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Postby Shonokin » Fri May 23, 2008 11:44 am

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Postby KaijuHQ » Fri May 23, 2008 11:47 am

^^^LOVE IT! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Tyler E. Martin » Fri May 23, 2008 11:57 am

To Benjamin and MouthForWar: Bravo. My hat is off to you, good sirs. :clap:
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Postby Apelinq » Fri May 23, 2008 12:08 pm

So you people want the only way for Toho to make money off of Godzilla internationally to be lawsuits for supposed copyright infringement.
Thanks to that attitude we got GINO and crap like Godzilla: Final Wars. In this topic I see mindless fanboys in this topic who praise opinions that agree with theirs, and put down others who don't.
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Postby Mexigojira » Fri May 23, 2008 12:35 pm

Shonokin wrote:Image


This just made my day.

Anyway, so, then, Godzilla instead of having to appeal to everyone, it should back to his roots and be loved for what he really is.
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Postby kidnicky » Fri May 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Apelinq wrote:So you people want the only way for Toho to make money off of Godzilla internationally to be lawsuits for supposed copyright infringement.
Thanks to that attitude we got GINO and crap like Godzilla: Final Wars. In this topic I see mindless fanboys in this topic who praise opinions that agree with theirs, and put down others who don't.


Godzilla Final Wars is the "darkest" entry in the series to date. It has fighting,shooting,martial arts,swearing,etc. In other words,it's everything you guys supposedly want.
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Postby Legion » Fri May 23, 2008 1:09 pm

kidnicky wrote:Godzilla Final Wars is the "darkest" entry in the series to date. It has fighting,shooting,martial arts,swearing,etc. In other words,it's everything you guys supposedly want.


And it was the biggest disaster (both creatively and finanically) in the series' entire 50 year history, losing more money than any Godzilla film.

And I still wouldn't call it a very dark film. Fighting, martial arts and swearing doesn't make a film "dark".
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri May 23, 2008 2:00 pm

Apelinq wrote:So you people want the only way for Toho to make money off of Godzilla internationally to be lawsuits for supposed copyright infringement.
Thanks to that attitude we got GINO and crap like Godzilla: Final Wars. In this topic I see mindless fanboys in this topic who praise opinions that agree with theirs, and put down others who don't.


Next time you decide to post something, make sure it makes sense.
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Postby Apelinq » Fri May 23, 2008 2:10 pm

MouthForWar wrote:
Next time you decide to post something, make sure it makes sense.


Maybe it doesn't too you. Your the type of fanboy that I was making my statements about, but oh sure, lets make change and more serous films like Gojira , and Godzilla 1984 a bad thing.
Last edited by Apelinq on Fri May 23, 2008 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Legion » Fri May 23, 2008 2:13 pm

If I have one thing to add to Ben's fantastic post on the last page, it would be that - although Godzilla vs Megalon didn't help Godzilla's reputation any - critics were picking apart the "rubber suits", "cardboard buildings" and "bad acting" as far back as the 1950s. It's a stigma that's been around as long as the genre itself, though I agree films like Megalon didn't help matters in the 1970s.

Apeling, seriously, it wasnt just MouthForWar. Your post didn't make any sense to me. Why not proofread something before you send it. And "serious films" like Godzilla 1985 aren't a bad thing. Who is saying they are? The problem is with "fans" who claim that those types of films are the only "true" Godzilla movies and enjoyable flicks like Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Godzilla vs Hedora are embarassing trash that fail to portray "The King of the Monsters" the way he "should" be seen and anyone who enjoys those films are somehow responsible for the series' decline.

Simply asinine.
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri May 23, 2008 2:32 pm

Legion wrote:If I have one thing to add to Ben's fantastic post on the last page, it would be that - although Godzilla vs Megalon didn't help Godzilla's reputation any - critics were picking apart the "rubber suits", "cardboard buildings" and "bad acting" as far back as the 1950s. It's a stigma that's been around as long as the genre itself, though I agree films like Megalon didn't help matters in the 1970s.

Apeling, seriously, it wasnt just MouthForWar. Your post didn't make any sense to me. Why not proofread something before you send it. And "serious films" like Godzilla 1985 aren't a bad thing. Who is saying they are? The problem is with "fans" who claim that those types of films are the only "true" Godzilla movies and enjoyable flicks like Godzilla vs the Sea Monster and Godzilla vs Hedora are embarassing trash that fail to portray "The King of the Monsters" the way he "should" be seen and anyone who enjoys those films are somehow responsible for the series' decline.

Simply asinine.


Exactly. Nobody said serious Godzilla movies were a bad thing. We said its not whats gonna make or break the series and it should only be done if there's a truly good reason to do it artistically (and making Godzilla more mainstream isn't one of those reasons). And that the other films shouldn't be denounced for not taking themselves seriously.

But posters like Apeling just like to put words into people's mouths instead of looking at things for how they are.
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Postby we77964 » Fri May 23, 2008 2:56 pm

Apelinq wrote:So you people want the only way for Toho to make money off of Godzilla internationally to be lawsuits for supposed copyright infringement.
Thanks to that attitude we got GINO and crap like Godzilla: Final Wars. In this topic I see mindless fanboys in this topic who praise opinions that agree with theirs, and put down others who don't.


Thank you Apeling, Thank you. You have a proven my point. The VS series and Milliunum series tried to be dark (opps did I said that?) and serious but they have chessiness. Which is why they were boring.
Remember in the 1990's before Gino and the Scapped G'94 movie, Toho give premission to Tristar to make a sequel to Godzilla vs Meachgodzilla II. Tristar said no and gave us GINO. Why is that?

If I were to make a Godzilla film. I would add some mystery into G's role and in the storyline. If Godzilla does exist in the real world, he wouldn't be the goof ball of the 1970's. I want him to be a threat to mankind as well as his foes.

Kidnicky, you said GFW was dark. Ha. If they would scapped Minalla, boy, the grandfather, and some of hacking of other sci-fi films then it was be dark. If they trash some of the music and play the movie in a vein of a classic invasion movie instead of goofy wild Xians, then it would have been the one of the best G-film ever.
The old school Xians, the Mysterians, and the ape aliens were more of a threat than the Xians of GFW and the aliens from G2K.
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Postby Apelinq » Fri May 23, 2008 2:58 pm

I admit to using double speak, hyperboles (too often) and poor grammar. But what is the future for the franchise if there is no change from formulaic plots or nostalgia other then making a Godzilla film similar to Cloverfield?
Rather then hiring new writers or Toho spending more money on their kaiju films.
Last edited by Apelinq on Fri May 23, 2008 8:50 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby KaijuHQ » Fri May 23, 2008 3:03 pm

Seriously, do you guys really think that the Godzilla series would have survived all this time without changing formulas like they have? 28 films of nothing but "darkness and gore"? Give me a break.

And then there's this...

kidnicky wrote:Godzilla Final Wars is the "darkest" entry in the series to date. It has fighting,shooting,martial arts,swearing,etc. In other words,it's everything you guys supposedly want.

we77964 wrote:Kidnicky, you said GFW was dark. Ha. If they would scapped Minalla, boy, the grandfather, and some of hacking of other sci-fi films then it was be dark. Blah blah blah...

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Etymology: French or Late Latin; French sarcasme, from Late Latin sarcasmos, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein to tear flesh, bite the lips in rage, sneer, from sark-, sarx flesh; probably akin to Avestan thwar's- to cut
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1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
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Postby August » Fri May 23, 2008 3:14 pm

Just an observation: People bandy about "Cheesy" as an adjective, but do they know the meaning? It seems as though the word is so far removed from whatever "meaning" it had; much like how "campy" became in the 1980s and 1990s.

Tanaka, Honda and Tsuburaya (et. al.) pushed the envelope unlike the films that came after the Showa Era—the proof is in the films themselves. We wouldn't have had King Ghidorah without them. Godzilla is a "Monster for All Seasons."
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Postby we77964 » Fri May 23, 2008 3:22 pm

Apelinq wrote:I admit to using double speak, hyperboles (too often) and poor grammar. But what is the future for the franchise if there is no change from formulaic plots or nostalgia other then making a Godzilla film similar to Cloverfield?


You do not have to make a Godzilla movie like Cloverfield. All you have to do is to adjust the direction. I say let's take a different route. This is why the VS series, the Milluinim and the post GvM'64 are failures in catching fun, the fear, and joy of what Godzilla should be.

The late Showa era (GvSeaMonester to Terror) lacks in the art and the sense of urgency. The Late VS era (G&M to GvD) lacks fun and the Millenuim series lacks all of the above and direction.

The best Godzilla movies were in the 1950's, early 60's and the 1980's.
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Postby Benjamin Haines » Fri May 23, 2008 3:29 pm

Apelinq wrote:So you people want the only way for Toho to make money off of Godzilla internationally to be lawsuits for supposed copyright infringement.


Toho have been making a killing licensing Godzilla movies to home video distributors in the US over the past ten years now. But even then, Godzilla DVDs still only sell to a niche market here in the States (read: us, the fans). Like it or not, that's really the extent to which Godzilla's marketability is ever going to reach in this country. No attempt at "mainstreaming" Godzilla is going to produce a film which the American public eats up at the box office. CGI? A generic Hollywood blockbuster story? Michael Bay helming it? A cast that includes Johnny Depp and Will Smith? Portraying Godzilla as an unspeakable terror that strikes fear into the hearts of children? Nope. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to make Godzilla suddenly become popular with the mainstream public. Why not? Because it's Godzilla. End of story. Conforming Godzilla to mainstream Hollywood standards would be as futile as it would be inane.

This again begs the question: Why do you care so much? Why is it so important to you (or anybody for that matter) what the masses of the public think about Godzilla? Just stop worrying about what other people think like that. It really does not matter and it shouldn't make a difference one way or another as far as your personal appreciation of Godzilla goes.

God, I feel like an episode of Boy Meets World trying to teach a moral lesson that we were all supposed to learn in middle school.
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Postby we77964 » Fri May 23, 2008 3:49 pm

Benjamin Haines wrote: Toho have been making a killing licensing Godzilla movies to home video distributors in the US over the past ten years now. But even then, Godzilla DVDs still only sell to a niche market here in the States (read: us, the fans). Like it or not, that's really the extent to which Godzilla's marketability is ever going to reach in this country. No attempt at "mainstreaming" Godzilla is going to produce a film which the American public eats up at the box office. CGI? A generic Hollywood blockbuster story? Michael Bay helming it? A cast that includes Johnny Depp and Will Smith? Portraying Godzilla as an unspeakable terror that strikes fear into the hearts of children? Nope. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is going to make Godzilla suddenly become popular with the mainstream public. Why not? Because it's Godzilla. End of story. Conforming Godzilla to mainstream Hollywood standards would be as futile as it would be inane.


Ben, instead of talking past us, why not just try to understand where we are coming from? That goes to LEGION and others as well.

Benjamin Haines wrote: This again begs the question: Why do you care so much? Why is it so important to you (or anybody for that matter) what the masses of the public think about Godzilla? Just stop worrying about what other people think like that. It really does not matter and it shouldn't make a difference one way or another as far as your personal appreciation of Godzilla goes.
GET THIS THOUGH YOUR HEAD here, IT ISN"T about the masses. It is about making the movies silly, boring, or just plain stupid. If Toho keeps up they will lose fans.
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Postby August » Fri May 23, 2008 3:58 pm

Making the films appealing to a wide variety of people is what kept Godzilla going for decades. The redundancy of the Heisei and Millennium Series is what killed it—Toho pigeonholed the series, twice, and refused to really let the filmmakers go into new directions because of marketing guidelines parameters — imagine what kind of film GMK would have been with Anguirus and Varan, and the Atragon.

The suits at Toho have made all of the wrong decisions. Even Honda stated that if Godzilla was the same from film to film that it would quickly become "boring" and that the continual production of the films wouldn't have lasted as long. People didn't stay away from the silly and stupid GODZILLA VS. MEGALON when it was released in the US in 1976 -- and it was a big box office hit.
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Postby Mac » Fri May 23, 2008 3:58 pm

I don't know if I can fully agree with Ben. Godzilla could become mainstream and taken seriously, its just all about time. A couple generations of movie goers is all it would take. For the meantime, Godzilla just needs to lay low. I just hope that when Godzilla returns that TOHO gives some serious thought to it.
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Postby August » Fri May 23, 2008 4:02 pm

Godzilla used to be mainstream, in the 1950s and 1960s, with all of the films being in wide theatrical release and raking in cash. But since then, not so much. Ben is correct, the character is part of a niche fanbase -- Godzilla could become mainstream, but what would be done to accomplish that, might be too far removed from what makes Godzilla, Godzilla. That is, being Japanese-made films. Until the Japanese produce films that will rival US fare (as they did in the 1950s and 1960s), I don't see the situation changing.

On the other hand, we don't need Godzilla to be mainstream to validate our love of these films, either. I'm not ashamed of any of the films (except for FINAL WARS, which was Kitamura's attempt at making a Godzilla film the foreign mainstream would accept as a Godzilla film).
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Thank you Mac and Thank you August

Postby we77964 » Fri May 23, 2008 4:24 pm

August wrote:Making the films appealing to a wide variety of people is what kept Godzilla going for decades. The redundancy of the Heisei and Millennium Series is what killed it—Toho pigeonholed the series, twice, and refused to really let the filmmakers go into new directions because of marketing guidelines parameters — imagine what kind of film GMK would have been with Anguirus and Varan, and the Atragon.

GMK would have been one of the best Godzilla ever, if Toho didn’t tie the filmmakers hands. Angurirus and Varan make more sense then Mothra and KGINO.
Mac wrote:I don't know if I can fully agree with Ben. Godzilla could become mainstream and taken seriously, its just all about time. A couple generations of movie goers is all it would take. For the meantime, Godzilla just needs to lay low. I just hope that when Godzilla returns that TOHO gives some serious thought to it.
Yes Godzilla needs to lay low, but there should be a Mothra movie, Rodan Movie, Dogra movie etc. in order to build up to renew the Godzilla series.
August wrote:Godzilla used to be mainstream, in the 1950s and 1960s, with all of the films being in wide theatrical release and raking in cash. But since then, not so much. Ben is correct, the character is part of a niche fanbase -- Godzilla could become mainstream, but what would be done to accomplish that, might be too far removed from what makes Godzilla, Godzilla. That is, being Japanese-made films. Until the Japanese produce films that will rival US fare (as they did in the 1950s and 1960s), I don't see the situation changing.

Thank you for another point. Godzilla was mainstream in the 1950’s and 60‘s. It was consider as a blockbuster in the states.
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