Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

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Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby Henry88 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:14 pm

Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray spec is about "more than resolution"
http://www.whathifi.com/news/ultra-hd-4 ... n-says-bda

better be.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby jellydonut25 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:38 am

Sounds like a bunch of stuff the average person won't be able to see.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby XvGojira » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:39 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Sounds like a bunch of stuff the average person won't be able to see.


Sounds like unless you have a literal theater in your home, and not just a home theater, you won't be getting much more out of it that Non-Ultra Technically-HD-As-Well Blu Rays.

And a shady thing they have going on with the name is that they don't HAVE to be 4K, since they aren't labeled as such. So we'll probably hear some hubbub about releases that are more or less just standard Blurays tossed onto a new disc and a higher price tag.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby canofhumdingers » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:49 pm

I don't think they would put stuff at less than 4k on there without labeling it as such (much like they will label bonus features as being in SD on blurays).

I mean, Ultra HD is being adopted as the official name of the 4k standard format spec for home video. Much like HiDefinition or HD is the official name of the home video spec for 720i/p and 1080i/p. This should actually be less confusing as it appears there won't be multiple resolutions and interlaced or progressive all within the same label.

Still, the resolution is overkill for the vast majority of TV sets. The increased dynamic range and color gamut should be nice though. Personally, I'd still rather they focus on getting rid of compression over increasing resolution...
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby Tom R VanSlambrouck » Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:38 am

We have a 4K set on display at work and really the only difference I can tell is that it looks sharper when you stand closer to it. However if you stand a distance way from the 1080p sets they look just as good as the 4K set.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:38 pm

"Still, the resolution is overkill for the vast majority of TV sets. The increased dynamic range and color gamut should be nice though."

Canofhumdingers has it exactly right :)

High dynamic range and increased color gamut is something EVERYONE can see (unless they are literally blind, or at least color-blind), and it will be as dramatic an improvement over today's HD as HD itself was over standard definition. The increase in resolution (the 4K that everyone gets hung up on) is the LEAST of the quality improvements. In that, Jellydonut is correct - 4K resolution is "stuff the average person won't be able to see." However, don't discount High Dynamic Range or the wider color gamut. Those are impressive, substantial improvements in picture quality.

Part of my day job has led me to getting involved in some of the development of new UHD specs. If anyone has any questions about this stuff I am happy to answer them. I have seen most of this technology in action and can give a good overview from my own (very skeptical) eye.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:44 pm

Now you got me started on this stuff :)

XvGojira wrote:Sounds like unless you have a literal theater in your home, and not just a home theater, you won't be getting much more out of it that Non-Ultra Technically-HD-As-Well Blu Rays.

And a shady thing they have going on with the name is that they don't HAVE to be 4K, since they aren't labeled as such. So we'll probably hear some hubbub about releases that are more or less just standard Blurays tossed onto a new disc and a higher price tag.


If a film is "just" standard 1080P HD and has been remastered to take advantage of a wider color gamut and high dynamic range, it will look MUCH MUCH better than a film that has been mastered at 4K but without the benefits of the wider color gamut and high dynamic range. In other words, the resolution is the LEAST important part of the improvements coming our way.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:49 pm

Here are excerpts from a much longer article I wrote about this stuff for a different outlet:

Much of what is discussed here has to do with resolution in terms of pixel counts and potential resolutions, but there are numerous hard facts of the movie-making and post-production processes we keep coming up against. One of the things we are discovering is that 35mm film really does not support much in the way of visible picture detail at scans much above 2K (essentially 1080P), especially if the original was shot Super 35mm (4K scans are likely overkill). Scope films shot anamorphically, on the other hand, do have a bit more visible (and therefore usable) resolution. I've sat in on comparisons between film sourced 4K scans and 2K down-rezzed versions, and the visual difference is almost zero. Unless the film in question was shot with a native 4K / 5K camera or sourced from 70mm, there seems to be little visible benefit to going to resolutions much higher than 1080P.

I also quite often hear from people who (quite understandably) would like to see their favorite blockbusters released in 4K. However, we now come up against another limitation in terms of how movies are typically assembled in post-production. In the case of almost every FX heavy movie over the last 10 years right up until today, the FX have been rendered at 2K. So even if you went back and re-scanned the film at 4K, you would have to totally recreate every CGI effect and composite from scratch at 4K resolution - something that would be incredibly expensive and time consuming. As others have pointed out, even those films that possess very little in obvious FX work are edited and graded at 2K resolution levels. Even the average romantic comedy can have numerous CGI fix-ups, composites for lighting alteration, adding or subtracting buildings, changing parts of locations, etc. It will perhaps be the rare movie which *doesn't* have any 2K rendered FX elements incorporated. The downside here is that any movie that was finished in 2K will need to be totally re-assembled in 4K with all new FX renders. All this means time and money.

It is true that post-production suites are moving toward 4K capabilities, but this will only help us in terms of future content. If a movie was shot digitally in 4K and transferred in 4K AND the FX / composites were rendered in 4K, yes, they might be more impressive at 4K / 5K resolutions assuming that you are standing less than 2 picture heights away from the screen (once you get more than 2X the screen height away, the difference between HD and 4K becomes very difficult to discern). Remember, the difference between HD and 4K is in fine detail, not picture sharpness. You can simply make out more fine detail in a 4K image than a 1080P image, again assuming you are close enough to the screen for your eye to even make out that level of detail. (BTW, the number of movies shot and finished in 4K is extremely small - most of them are Sony titles.)

Here's where it gets even more complicated. At 4K resolutions we are literally getting to the limits of what not only the human eye can perceive on a display at reasonable seating distances, you are also getting to the limits of what can be resolved on the source medium. For example, if you move the camera (especially at 24 frames per second, the motion picture standard), motion blur becomes such an issue that fine detail gets destroyed. If your shot is even slightly out of focus, fine detail gets destroyed. If you aren't using camera lenses that resolve 4K resolution, those fine details won't even be captured. If you are shooting a landscape on a hazy day, if the camera shakes, if your shutter speed is too long, if the photosensors in the camera don't actually resolve 4K, the list of things that can destroy fine detail levels goes on and on.

If you look at the 4K demo clips TV manufacturers use on their sets, you will notice that they all feature ROCK STEADY high frame rate footage of picture subjects that possess fine patterns and betray very little movement. Of course, your typical Hollywood movie features quick cutting, a moving camera, etc, so therefore the likely visible benefit of 4K is greatly diminished. All of this is precisely why Hollywood is looking to things like High Dynamic Range and an expanded color gamut for next generation video and theatrical formats, as the benefits of these technologies are obvious at ANY seating distance and with any material. That's where most of the real picture improvements will come from.

All of that said, there are cases where a film shot in 4K or with high resolution film stock WILL definitely benefit from higher resolution technology. Films shot in 70mm, such as Patton, 2001, The Sound of Music, or Interstellar (some shot in IMAX) would definitely benefit, as there are often nice long static shots in those films and the film stock itself supports high detail. Films shot 1.85:1 or anamorphic 2.40:1 35mm could also benefit, but to a lesser degree.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby XvGojira » Sat Jan 31, 2015 8:09 pm

So, in dummy McDdum-dum terms (which I'll heartily say I fall into that category in terms of the deep technical bits), this 4K stuff, resolution-wise, really only affects current and future films since only a rare few movies would have the ability and reason to completely redo their effects to make it look good *cough*starwars*cough* or have and will be filmed at and have their FX done at 4k. But even then it's not so much of an improvement unless you're going all forensic on the film, like say a fan prop maker gleaning details and different angles on the prop.

But the real improvement, that the commoners would notice is the better color range, correct? I think I get it, but it really seems like it something that I'd need to see side by side comparisons to really understand. In my mind I'm just seeing someone making some alterations to the film that I could make by just adjusting settings on my TV.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby Tom R VanSlambrouck » Sun Feb 01, 2015 3:43 am

XvGojira wrote:So, in dummy McDdum-dum terms (which I'll heartily say I fall into that category in terms of the deep technical bits), this 4K stuff, resolution-wise, really only affects current and future films since only a rare few movies would have the ability and reason to completely redo their effects to make it look good *cough*starwars*cough* or have and will be filmed at and have their FX done at 4k. But even then it's not so much of an improvement unless you're going all forensic on the film, like say a fan prop maker gleaning details and different angles on the prop.

But the real improvement, that the commoners would notice is the better color range, correct? I think I get it, but it really seems like it something that I'd need to see side by side comparisons to really understand. In my mind I'm just seeing someone making some alterations to the film that I could make by just adjusting settings on my TV.


Not necessarily because 35mm still holds more detail than anything else so older movies shot on 35mm would be able to improve from newer media like 4K BD.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby XvGojira » Sun Feb 01, 2015 5:26 am

Tom R VanSlambrouck wrote:
XvGojira wrote:So, in dummy McDdum-dum terms (which I'll heartily say I fall into that category in terms of the deep technical bits), this 4K stuff, resolution-wise, really only affects current and future films since only a rare few movies would have the ability and reason to completely redo their effects to make it look good *cough*starwars*cough* or have and will be filmed at and have their FX done at 4k. But even then it's not so much of an improvement unless you're going all forensic on the film, like say a fan prop maker gleaning details and different angles on the prop.

But the real improvement, that the commoners would notice is the better color range, correct? I think I get it, but it really seems like it something that I'd need to see side by side comparisons to really understand. In my mind I'm just seeing someone making some alterations to the film that I could make by just adjusting settings on my TV.


Not necessarily because 35mm still holds more detail than anything else so older movies shot on 35mm would be able to improve from newer media like 4K BD.


But John said

One of the things we are discovering is that 35mm film really does not support much in the way of visible picture detail at scans much above 2K (essentially 1080P)


Hence why I feel so damned confused on this topic.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby canofhumdingers » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:35 am

I think at least part of the confusion lies in the fact that, yes, 35mm film has the POTENTIAL to resolve more than 2k resolution but it rarely actually DOES that. Yes, if you go back to the original camera negative of even old films, you can actually pull out much more detail than people saw on the films original release. A good example being the wires for things like the lions tail in wizard of oz or the wires for the Martian ships in war of the worlds. But the things is, filmmakers would use things like that knowing that the film printing process would make them all but invisible on the actual release print that went to the movie theater. When a film was made, it created the original camera negative which was then used to make an inter positive which was then used to make an inter negative which was then used to strike the release prints that were sent to movie theaters. That's at LEAST four photochemical printing processes before you got the copy that would actually be shown to the public. And with each generation of printing you loose detail so things like tiny wires practically disappear.

TL;DR: 35mm has the potential to resolve more than 2k but usually doesn't. When you see a 35mm print you are literally watching a copy of a copy of a copy. At best.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby Legion » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:48 am

How much clearer do people really need their movies to be...?
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:18 pm

XvGojira wrote:So, in dummy McDdum-dum terms (which I'll heartily say I fall into that category in terms of the deep technical bits), this 4K stuff, resolution-wise, really only affects current and future films since only a rare few movies would have the ability and reason to completely redo their effects to make it look good *cough*starwars*cough* or have and will be filmed at and have their FX done at 4k. But even then it's not so much of an improvement unless you're going all forensic on the film, like say a fan prop maker gleaning details and different angles on the prop.

But the real improvement, that the commoners would notice is the better color range, correct? I think I get it, but it really seems like it something that I'd need to see side by side comparisons to really understand. In my mind I'm just seeing someone making some alterations to the film that I could make by just adjusting settings on my TV.


Here is a "side by side" illustration that shows the full color range of what the human eye can see (the entirety of the red / green / blue "triangle"). Current Blu-ray / HDTV utilizes the REC709 color standard, which is represented by the much smaller, interior triangle on the left. As you can see, our current HDTVs reproduce less than half of the colors visible to the human eye. The new color standard - REC2020 - gets us to almost 75% of what the human eye can see. Ironically, these are only simulations, as your computer monitor can't reproduce the full color spectrum either. Until you have a computer monitor or UHDTV that can display the full color gamut, all we can show are simulations.

Image

High dynamic range is just as difficult to illustrate, because again - your display can't handle the extra information. A typical LCD HDTV might put out about 200 - 300 "nits" of brightness at peak picture points, which would represent the brightest parts of the image (stars on a starfield, the sun reflecting of a car hood, etc). Ideally you would want the black in a starfield or night sky to represent zero nits of brightness - perfect black. Even with a theoretically ideal 0 - 300 nit range between light and dark (zero being black, 300 being the brightest white), you are nowhere near how we perceive reality. High dynamic range displays could have peak brightness levels of between 4000 - 10000 nits, with blacks being at zero. As you can calculate, that is a massive improvement in image contrast and "pop." (For reference, a sunny day represents about 50,000 nits, so even HDR displays do not fully get up to "real life" brightness). Again, the display you are reading this on is not capable of anywhere near that kind of peak brightness, so all I can offer is a simulation of the difference HDR can make. The best explanation / illustration is on Dolby's page (and, having seen the real thing in action, I can testify to the fact that Dolby's representation is pretty accurate when it comes to the visible difference):

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies ... ion.html#3
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:45 pm

Tom R VanSlambrouck wrote:
XvGojira wrote:So, in dummy McDdum-dum terms (which I'll heartily say I fall into that category in terms of the deep technical bits), this 4K stuff, resolution-wise, really only affects current and future films since only a rare few movies would have the ability and reason to completely redo their effects to make it look good *cough*starwars*cough* or have and will be filmed at and have their FX done at 4k. But even then it's not so much of an improvement unless you're going all forensic on the film, like say a fan prop maker gleaning details and different angles on the prop.

But the real improvement, that the commoners would notice is the better color range, correct? I think I get it, but it really seems like it something that I'd need to see side by side comparisons to really understand. In my mind I'm just seeing someone making some alterations to the film that I could make by just adjusting settings on my TV.


Not necessarily because 35mm still holds more detail than anything else so older movies shot on 35mm would be able to improve from newer media like 4K BD.


That is something that has been stated for years and is often represented as being true, but the fact is that the testing that has been done with 2K (HD) and 4K scans of 35mm film elements and visible differences are almost non-existent. I actually sat in on a comparison of a 4K scan of IMAX footage compared to a 2K downconversion at one of the major Hollywood studios, and it was almost impossible to see a difference. Any difference that could be perceived was only noticeable when standing within two picture heights of the screen, and only in areas of very fine detail. Think about what that means for the average 55" flat screen, at 27" high. You would need to be sitting closer than 54" from the screen to see the additional picture detail that 4K can bring. That's less than 5 feet away! And this is IMAX film we are talking about, not 35mm.

The truth re: 35mm is that most of the *potential* resolution is lost to things like film judder, film grain, camera movement, and MTF factors. As far as 35mm film goes, 1080P HD is about as good as it gets in terms of actual picture detail. And, even if the detail were there, you would need to sit in extremely close proximity to your UHDTV set to see it :)
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:50 pm

canofhumdingers wrote:I think at least part of the confusion lies in the fact that, yes, 35mm film has the POTENTIAL to resolve more than 2k resolution but it rarely actually DOES that. Yes, if you go back to the original camera negative of even old films, you can actually pull out much more detail than people saw on the films original release. A good example being the wires for things like the lions tail in wizard of oz or the wires for the Martian ships in war of the worlds. But the things is, filmmakers would use things like that knowing that the film printing process would make them all but invisible on the actual release print that went to the movie theater. When a film was made, it created the original camera negative which was then used to make an inter positive which was then used to make an inter negative which was then used to strike the release prints that were sent to movie theaters. That's at LEAST four photochemical printing processes before you got the copy that would actually be shown to the public. And with each generation of printing you loose detail so things like tiny wires practically disappear.

TL;DR: 35mm has the potential to resolve more than 2k but usually doesn't. When you see a 35mm print you are literally watching a copy of a copy of a copy. At best.


Good points, however the scans that I have seen were pulled from original negatives, and the 4K scans did not look much different. As you mentioned, you can start seeing things like wires on the lions tail (and Rodan's wings) on HD scans that you can't see with actual projected film. But of course the transfers you are looking at that reveal these details are "only" HD scans, not 4K scans. This essentially proves what I've been saying - Blu-ray and 2K are ALREADY better than film projection and may well represent the best 35mm films will ever look at least in terms of resolution. Dynamic Range and Color Gamut are areas where we can improve on what we are already seeing.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:52 pm

Legion wrote:How much clearer do people really need their movies to be...?


This is actually a good point :) In terms of clarity - meaning resolution, by my definition - things have already gotten to the point where we are reaching the limits of our human perception. In the areas of color and dynamic range, though, we are not even close. This is why Hollywood is looking at BETTER pixels, not MORE pixels. If you can have both, then great :)
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby XvGojira » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:27 pm

John Schuermann wrote:
Image



That does get the point across, at least the theory of it. But I know I won't really "get it" until I see some stills or clips of movies with the new color ranges compared to their previous versions.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:34 pm

XvGojira wrote:
John Schuermann wrote:
Image



That does get the point across, at least the theory of it. But I know I won't really "get it" until I see some stills or clips of movies with the new color ranges compared to their previous versions.


Totally agree. Right now, it's like trying to imagine a new color you've never seen before. It's hard to believe that current HDTV is missing so much color info.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 2:50 pm

I still wonder how much of that I'm going to be able to SEE. And honestly, I don't even know if a side-by-side comparison would really SELL me...because of course the BETTER thing is going to look BETTER when compared directly to its inferior SIDE BY SIDE. Put $51 right next to $50 and of course I'll grab the $51, but hand me $51 and I won't necessarily find it to be THAT much more than $50, if that metaphor makes sense.

I'd want to see a movie I've seen many times before on blu-ray, on Ultra MegaMax 4K High Super Def Boomstick disc and see if I notice a difference.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Mon Feb 02, 2015 4:08 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I still wonder how much of that I'm going to be able to SEE. And honestly, I don't even know if a side-by-side comparison would really SELL me...because of course the BETTER thing is going to look BETTER when compared directly to its inferior SIDE BY SIDE. Put $51 right next to $50 and of course I'll grab the $51, but hand me $51 and I won't necessarily find it to be THAT much more than $50, if that metaphor makes sense.

I'd want to see a movie I've seen many times before on blu-ray, on Ultra MegaMax 4K High Super Def Boomstick disc and see if I notice a difference.


I totally get your skepticism, and applaud your desire to have someone PROVE that the "new thing" is in actuality better. I wish more people would do that. Consumers have a right to be skeptical.

IMPORTANT - keep in mind that buying an Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray will have zero benefit if your TV / display is not capable of displaying high dynamic range or an expanded color gamut. NONE of today's 4K TVs will do that, making 4K by itself essentially a ripoff (IMO). Not only that, the source material also needs to have those capabilities. How much extended dynamic range and color gamut we can pull out of older films is still being determined. Most of these benefits will come from new productions that can take advantage of these enhancements (though at the HPA Retreat last year a representative from one of the major studios said they had gone back and rescanned a 70mm title with a new high dynamic range scanner and it was amazing how much additional contrast they were able to pull out of the print). There is also the issue of cost - rescanning an older film to take advantage of the picture quality enhancements is going to be an expensive proposition. There are very few older films that sell well enough to justify the cost of going back and remastering for UHD release. And this is where you are RIGHT to be skeptical as to what will eventually be released.

Speaking of skeptical, here is a list of things of almost zero value that people get sold on:

    High resolution audio

    Vinyl records (now that we have CD and lossless digital)

    4K Flat Panels WITHOUT the additional benefits of expanded color gamut and high dynamic range

    Expensive cables (I'm looking at YOU, Monster Cable)

    Most "picture enhancement" modes on most flat panels

People should be VERY skeptical of marketing hype. What I am honestly trying to do here is point out what IS important (and noticeable) vs. what is NOT :)
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby jellydonut25 » Mon Feb 02, 2015 5:19 pm

Curved TVs also strike me as bull$***.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Mon Feb 02, 2015 6:10 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:Curved TVs also strike me as bull$***.


YES.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby XvGojira » Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:26 pm

The New Curved TV for people who don't care that their friends at the sides of the room can't see half the picture. It's like the old projection TVs but more dick-ish.
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Re: Ultra HD 4K Blu-ray

Postby John Schuermann » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:17 pm

XvGojira wrote:The New Curved TV for people who don't care that their friends at the sides of the room can't see half the picture. It's like the old projection TVs but more dick-ish.


No kidding. Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHjsKHKKnw0
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