Godzilla KOTM... from the Criterion Collection!?!?!

[Benjamin Haines]

The user reason108 on blu-ray.com posted these Godzilla vs. Megalon screenshot comparisons between Media Blasters' 2014 BRD and Criterion's 2019 BRD.


Media Blasters BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Media Blasters BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Media Blasters BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Additionally, the user twozbar posted many Invasion of Astro-Monster comparisons between Toho's 2014 BRD and Criterion's 2019 BRD:


Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:



Toho BRD:


Criterion BRD:

[Dr Kain]

Why is everyone so obsessed with comparison shots instead of just enjoying the movies?

It's like people need some sort of reward to enjoy a movie these days.

[H-Man]

Because the movies would be more enjoyable if they looked better than "meh."

Criterion:


Toho 4K (from broadcast, so purely for color reference):


Criterion:


Toho:


Criterion:


Toho:

[william newell]

Thanks to B and N's timely sale, I picked this set up yesterday. So far I have watched Ghidorah, the special effects outtakes feature, and the Japanese cut of "King Kong vs. Godzilla". Ghidorah looks great, the best I've ever seen it look, the "outtakes" feature- so nice to finally have subs for this, and as to the Japanese cut of "King Kong vs. Godzilla", this is the 4th release I've had of this. The first was the official Toho VHS release(in which it was easily visible that this was a reconstruction of elements of varying quality), then an "unofficial" DVD release that was basically just a DVD rip of the VHS, to another "unofficial" copy of the Toho DVD, which, while not great, at least had fairly consistent video quality. which brings me to this release, which is pretty much like the Toho DVD. Not the best picture quality, but definitely watchable. And with this being an "official" release, I have no/less worry about laser rot than I do with an unofficial copy. One definite problem I ran across, however, was rather loud static coming from my rear speakers whenever the sound levels reach their peak. I was able to remedy this by putting my processor in "stereo" mode which cut off the rear speakers. Has anyone else had this issue, or am I the proud owner of a defective disc? Other than that, I'm quite pleased with this release. Of course, I would have preferred to have the English dubs/versions, but I still have my Classic Media/Sony/Media Blasters release's for those. Until something better comes along(which it seem's always does)I'm quite happy. It's funny to think how far things have come...from Ken Films 8mm shorts to this. all in less than the span of a lifetime!

[SeaHawk]

The comparisons are welcome, but not as instructive or as stark as comparisons between either the Criterion or Toho Blu-Rays of Astro-Monster and this year's premiere of the Champion version in HD, scanned from the original negative. The difference between the Criterion and Toho BRs is so incredibly marginal that you'd need to flip between them both on the same monitor to see it. A different monitor calibration would change the image more than the Toho-approved "light restoration." For all intents and purposes, it is a clone of Toho's original HD transfer, which has been available for streaming in this country for two years, to the day. The contrast relative to the originals is slightly boosted, but this isn't something you can detect without comparing the two under absolutely identical circumstances at the same time.

The Astro-Monster Champion broadcast, though, was a total revelation for me. You don't even need to directly compare it to any other copy to notice a huge difference. The movie looks like candy when you're finally able to see every color of the rainbow. It was like watching the movie for the first time. Gone is that mustard and beef stew tint. I never even noticed the greens in the night club or the plant in the conference room since the color green barely exists in the old HD transfer. There were details I'd never seen before.

The original Japanese prints of these films would have been struck from the original negatives... this is close to how they would have looked originally, if not slightly sharper and cleaner. The supplied HD transfer of this film, though, was from a print from a dupe negative from an IP from the original negative. It's closer to how an American print would have looked, and it could still look sharper and more colorful if it were given a modern transfer.











Check this out... in the bottom left corner you can see the shadow of the clapper at the very beginning of a cut. I never noticed it in any earlier transfer. I think it might have been outside of the projection area, or else they would have cut the first few seconds out.

[Shokara]

I picked up mine at Barnes and Noble today, and with the 50% discount on Criterion titles this month plus my Barnes and Noble membership card, I got the Blu-ray set price down to $108! Geez, this thing is so huge I have no idea where I'm going to put it. lol

[gojira_fan]

I caved in and picked up a copy at Barnes & Noble. Plus I’m a member so I got the 10% off.

Now I gotta figure out where I’m going to put it.

[Dr Kain]

Because the movies would be more enjoyable if they looked better than "meh."

People had no issue watching them on "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!" ass VHS at one time. Also, the video quality hasn't been even remotely "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!". It's not up to modern BD standards, but if you think the quality is "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!", you must watch everything in luxury.

[SeaHawk]

Guys, the Blu-Rays look better than VHS. Just be glad.

[H-Man]

Because the movies would be more enjoyable if they looked better than "meh."

People had no issue watching them on "OH GODZILLA! WHAT TERRIBLE LANGUAGE!" ass VHS at one time.

Because as bad as that was, that was the technical standard of the time. You yourself even admit the video quality on the Criterion set is "not up to modern BD standards." I also didn't say they were whatever swear word you used, although I probably could have (these are bad transfers). I said they were "meh," which I don't think is too far from your own opinion, which I'll repeat here:

It's not up to modern BD standards

And you might have a short memory but Godzilla fans did in fact take issue with watching these films on VHS, especially once DVD had captured the market (circa 2002) and most of these films were either unavailable or only available in pan and scanned video masters made in the '80s.

You shouldn't grade a video transfer on how it relates to one used for previous standards and formats. That's just foolish: of course these transfers look better than the ones Toho released on VHS in the '80s and '90s. As bad as they are, they represent a technological step forward (or maybe to the side) compared to those, but they do not at all reflect the current standards of the format. Is the best praise you can give these transfers that they look better than transfers done for DVD almost twenty years ago?

If you must compare these transfers to something else, compare them to other high definition transfers from the 1960s. That Toho shot these films on the same film stocks and using the same technical equipment as Hollywood has already been explained to you in another thread, or have you forgotten? I have seen modern HD transfers of cheaper films, made using cheaper technology, that look better than any of the films in this set (barring the 1954 film and possibly the U.S. version of KKvG). For example, just about any recent Hammer Films release. An even better example would be Universal's HD transfer of King Kong Escapes, since that mirrors a lot of the creative artistic decisions of the films in this collection. That's not even a stellar transfer but it's notably better in every regard than the Toho transfers contained herein.

There's no accounting for taste of course, so if these transfers are excellent for you then I'm glad you're happy with this set. However, as has been discussed at length, several of us are very disappointed with how these films look. You have a professional film archivist who has broken down exactly why these transfers were already inadequate in 2008 (when they were made) and why they don't hold up today. You're free to your own opinion but if you believe my (and others') want for transfers that are "up to modern BD standards" is a case of expecting "luxury" then I dunno what else to tell you, dude.

[Dr Kain]

True, but there's a difference between what you want and unrealistic expectations. The video quality matches exactly what is available at this time in Japan. Anyone that wanted it to be beyond that set themselves up for disappointment and should have put those expectations in check (same goes for the Ultraman BD). I knew what to expect. I didn't expect them to look as good as Infinty War. I just wanted something that was vasty superior to the DVDs I have and I have gotten that. They also look better than Toho's own BDs, which was quite surprising, so I'm happy about that too. I'm also super excited because it seems like Godzilla vs Gigan has the speech bubbles intact, so I can not wait to see those as they should have never been removed in the first place (at the very least should have been present on the DVDs and BDs that included the Jp version). Could they look better? Of course, but you can say that about every film. There is always room for improvement. Nevertheless, like I said, these are on par, if not slightly better, than what Japan currently has, and that is what matters most.

[lhb412]

Classic Media saw value in re-releasing their Godzilla titles on DVD in 2006 because their terrible first wave of DVDs in 2002 sold very well. For companies to dip in the same brand more than once, consumers have to give them a financial incentive. To boycott a product is to withhold that financial incentive. By not paying to go see Terminator: Dark Fate this weekend, I'm not sending the message that I'll pay to see the next Terminator if they do it differently; I'm saying I don't want new Terminator movies.

Looking at the current situation with this set more broadly, we've got most North American Godzilla fans and a sizable chunk of Criterion enthusiasts, film geeks and general consumers all springing for Criterion's BRD set of the first 15 Godzilla films, while a relatively small sliver of Godzilla fans are choosing not to buy it because it lacks most of the US cuts & dubs. From a fan perspective, it's easy to see this as sales being lost due to the lack of US versions. From the corporate perspective of Toho, though, if they're even considering American consumer interest in the US versions at all, this would indicate that the fans who advocate for the US cuts & dubs aren't reliable consumers. That's not going to compel Toho to try to appeal to those particular fans.

^ I agree with all of this.

[Gwangi]

Classic Media saw value in re-releasing their Godzilla titles on DVD in 2006 because their terrible first wave of DVDs in 2002 sold very well. For companies to dip in the same brand more than once, consumers have to give them a financial incentive. To boycott a product is to withhold that financial incentive. By not paying to go see Terminator: Dark Fate this weekend, I'm not sending the message that I'll pay to see the next Terminator if they do it differently; I'm saying I don't want new Terminator movies.

Looking at the current situation with this set more broadly, we've got most North American Godzilla fans and a sizable chunk of Criterion enthusiasts, film geeks and general consumers all springing for Criterion's BRD set of the first 15 Godzilla films, while a relatively small sliver of Godzilla fans are choosing not to buy it because it lacks most of the US cuts & dubs. From a fan perspective, it's easy to see this as sales being lost due to the lack of US versions. From the corporate perspective of Toho, though, if they're even considering American consumer interest in the US versions at all, this would indicate that the fans who advocate for the US cuts & dubs aren't reliable consumers. That's not going to compel Toho to try to appeal to those particular fans.

^ I agree with all of this.

But had the dubs been included, wouldn't have sales gone even further through the roof? Probably a smaller percentage yes, but more money, does mean more money!

[O.Supreme]

It does feel odd however, basically owning this set just for the Japanese release of KKvG, and any time I want to watch a classic Godzilla film other than this, I'm watching a fan restoration I've downloaded, or a previous BRD release that is better than Criterion's release... . Criterion is supposed to be *the best of the best* when it comes to home media releases. It's just frustrating that in this case....it isn't

[lhb412]

But had the dubs been included, wouldn't have sales gone even further through the roof? Probably a smaller percentage yes, but more money, does mean more money!

Maybe so, but as you say: marginal. But I think the success of this set makes such a thing slightly more possible for the future because it shows the audience for these releases. Still, it all depends on and their precarious whims.

[Heiseigodzilla425]

True, but there's a difference between what you want and unrealistic expectations. The video quality matches exactly what is available at this time in Japan. Anyone that wanted it to be beyond that set themselves up for disappointment and should have put those expectations in check (same goes for the Ultraman BD).

The difference between Criterion's Godzilla releases and Mill Creek's Ultraman releases is that Criterion is known for commissioning their own new restorations for the movies they release. Hell, look at comparisons of Criterion's restoration of Seven Samurai compared to Toho's. Granted, in recent years, they've started using other restorations when they meet Criterion's own high standard (Dr. Strangelove is one of their releases that comes to mind here). But in terms of video quality alone, this release must be a new low for Criterion.

Mill Creek on the other hand is known for simply using whatever their licensor gives them, and thats fine. Mill Creek's releases tend to be more affordable because they didn't really put any time or money into performing restorations themselves.

And that difference between Mill Creek and Criterion is crucial here, and its the main reason that I am so upset with Criterion (especially concerning the price). Criterion basically fed us Toho's transfers, and asked us to pay the normal price of a Criterion product for a substandard release. Mill Creek could have handled this release just as well as Criterion, and that should be pretty insulting to Criterion.

[lhb412]

^ I know you're speaking overall and not referring to the current sale, but I just wanted to mention that right now the Criterion set is $112, which breaks down to less than $10 a movie, plus the book and special features. If anyone's on the fence about buying it know that this price isn't likely to come back until the next Barnes and Noble sale in July.

[Benjamin Haines]

Why is everyone so obsessed with comparison shots instead of just enjoying the movies?

It's like people need some sort of reward to enjoy a movie these days.

I thought it was obvious from the screenshots I passed along that Criterion's BRDs look superior to those previous BRDs from Toho and Media Blasters. Criterion's contrast adjustments helped, especially for Megalon.

Because the movies would be more enjoyable if they looked better than "meh."

Criterion:
https://i.postimg.cc/brQDhC4G/kingkongg ... 27s217.png

Toho 4K (from broadcast, so purely for color reference):
https://i.postimg.cc/TPmtZGCf/vlcsnap-2 ... 09s219.png

Criterion:
https://i.postimg.cc/RVBJRmnw/kingkongg ... 14s653.png

Toho:
https://i.postimg.cc/ydHLK5b9/vlcsnap-2 ... 43s811.png

Criterion:
https://i.postimg.cc/CMDfk5dF/kingkongg ... 45s691.png

Toho:
https://i.postimg.cc/Z5W7x6N9/vlcsnap-2 ... 18s286.png

Yeah, it would have been nice if Toho had let Criterion use that 4K restoration of King Kong vs. Godzilla but it's no surprise that they didn't. Toho hasn't even released that on disc in Japan yet and even after they do they still might not be willing to share it with a foreign distributor.

The Astro-Monster Champion broadcast, though, was a total revelation for me. You don't even need to directly compare it to any other copy to notice a huge difference. The movie looks like candy when you're finally able to see every color of the rainbow. It was like watching the movie for the first time. Gone is that mustard and beef stew tint. I never even noticed the greens in the night club or the plant in the conference room since the color green barely exists in the old HD transfer. There were details I'd never seen before.

The original Japanese prints of these films would have been struck from the original negatives... this is close to how they would have looked originally, if not slightly sharper and cleaner. The supplied HD transfer of this film, though, was from a print from a dupe negative from an IP from the original negative. It's closer to how an American print would have looked, and it could still look sharper and more colorful if it were given a modern transfer.

Oh yeah, Toho's restorations of the Champion Festival cuts look very vibrant based on the screenshots that have gone around. There's no doubt that if Toho had let them then Criterion would have done their own restorations for Astro-Monster and the other sequels. They probably would have managed to improve even on those new transfers of the Champion Festival cuts, especially if they were restoring the uncut versions of the films. It would have been great for all parties if Toho had let Criterion do that for this set. C'est la Toho.

But had the dubs been included, wouldn't have sales gone even further through the roof? Probably a smaller percentage yes, but more money, does mean more money!

Maybe so, and maybe Criterion could pass along that sentiment from their consumers in an effort to convince Toho to reconsider letting them include the rest of the US versions in a future re-release.

However, that sentiment has to come from the consumers for it to carry any weight with Criterion or Toho. People who aren't buying this Godzilla set aren't consumers in this equation. Regardless of any fan's personal reasons for choosing not to buy it, that just puts them in the same boat as every non-fan in the world who isn't buying the set. 'I won't buy Godzilla movies' is the message sent there, not 'I'll buy Godzilla movies if they're presented the way I like.' Whether this set sold well or not, there would be no reason to tailor any future release of these 15 Godzilla movies to the whims of people who weren't interested in this current product.

Strong sales are what could make Criterion want to revisit these titles in the future. Customer feedback is something that Criterion can take to Toho to make the case for a re-release with the US versions and ground-up film restorations. We can only hope that Toho might have a change of heart (or personnel) by that point but nobody's boycott is going to bring things any closer to that goal.

[DannyBeane]

99% of the problems with this set are because of Toho. Criterion would have loved to have done their usual restorations and included dubs but Toho seems to want the American dubs to die because they are afraid of owing royalties to the vo artists and doesn't want the set to compete against the Japanese releases as far as having new prints made. That said, I'm in love with this set, most of these films have never looked better. For the missing dubs, I'm just going to download and burn the fan restorations. It's a shame Toho has such a backwards view. Overall I give this release a B+. The Ghidrah print has been the best print so far.

[SeaHawk]

I'm glad, at least, that awareness of Toho's ridiculous mandates has risen to the surface, and that Criterion isn't the fall guy this time like ADV, Sony and Classic Media all were. Criterion isn't getting roasted, Toho is, and that makes me happy. Something happened during the Media Blasters debacle, and continued throughout the wave of Echo Bridge and Kraken releases - a revolution in which more and more fans have become aware of Toho's awful management and bureaucracy.

Everyone knows Criterion, especially, would have done a bang-up job if they had any freedom. They would have been more than capable - even more than Classic Media - of restoring the poorly preserved US versions to modern standards. Their near immaculate restoration of GKOTM set a precedent for what could have been. This isn't restoration that any fan is capable of. All I thought I could reasonably look forward to with a set like this was restorations of the former Classic Media-owned US versions... I wasn't even expecting new transfers of the Japanese versions, or even the long-suppressed (for no good reason) AIP dubs of Destroy All Monsters and Smog Monster. Any extras would have just been added icing, and the quality of the packaging art is never something I consider when buying stuff on video.

This set might be significant as the first collection of all 15 original films stateside, but it's also significant as a sort of symbolic funeral march for virtually all of the US versions. What it lacks sends just as strong of a message as what it does contain, and it sets a depressing precedent for the future of all Toho kaiju films' US versions on video and streaming. The bar feels lower than it has ever been. The inclusion of brand new transfers of US versions of Euro trash on Blu-Ray isn't an unthinkable luxury, far from it, but for Toho genre films, it is. Whether you like them or not, these versions are important artifacts, and Toho wants to pretend they don't exist, which is immoral, cowardly, fundamentally revisionist, and simply a really poor business decision. Some of these versions contain unique footage shot in Toho's own studios, but they don't care.

The true potential for these films on video continues to be eroded each year by the studio that owns them. Meanwhile, you can buy a Blu-Ray containing Hercules in the Haunted World containing new transfers of the Italian, UK, and US versions. Shame on you, Toho. It is the twilight of home video, and a long belated genre film renaissance is occurring that you refuse to let your films join, or even the US versions of your films. Shame on you, cowards.

[Dr Kain]

It does feel odd however, basically owning this set just for the Japanese release of KKvG, and any time I want to watch a classic Godzilla film other than this, I'm watching a fan restoration I've downloaded, or a previous BRD release that is better than Criterion's release... . Criterion is supposed to be *the best of the best* when it comes to home media releases. It's just frustrating that in this case....it isn't

I've never ever seen Criterion advertise themselves as the "best of the best" though. They're not always the best.

And these Godzilla releases IS the "best of the best" available right now.

Let me ask you guys something, if this miraculous set had happened in 2012, would you have been happier about it then compared to now?

Now the problem is that Toho doesn't understand how the world works in 2019. They still think this is 1960. They're barred down by too much traditional bullshit that Japan in general is still shoving up their own asses because they don't want to modernize their way of thinking. That's why they still can't comprehend how Fair Use works with YouTube. Nintendo has finally started to learn how much this thought process bit them in the ass and is trying to rectify despite still not getting it fully. I'm really hoping the Reiwa Emperor can finally push Japan in the 21st century when it comes to how daily life, political perceptions, and business practices given that he is a Gen X-er rather than a baby boomer or silent gen-er.

Anyway, I watched Ebirah. Movie still has its ups and downs, but I am really loving these consistent looking subtitles and I thought the video quality was fantastic. My only issue is that the audio could have been better. The tiny fairies still sound like their dialog is coming out of a garbage can. It also doesn't help that they don't look anything like they did in the last two movies due to some stupid ass recasting. Of course, at least they are present instead of just letting Mothra be contained in a zoo by herself for DAM.

[SeaHawk]

Let me ask you guys something, if this miraculous set had happened in 2012, would you have been happier about it then compared to now?

I would have felt the same way, honestly. The lack of nearly all the US versions would still be as depressing then as it is now. I would have at least felt more hopeful for an upgrade or a paradigm shift at Toho that would have resulted in releases of the US versions down the line, since we're closer to the end of home video now.

[Dr Kain]

Let me ask you guys something, if this miraculous set had happened in 2012, would you have been happier about it then compared to now?

I would have felt the same way, honestly. The lack of nearly all the US versions would still be as depressing then as it is now. I would have at least felt more hopeful for an upgrade or a paradigm shift at Toho that would have resulted in releases of the US versions down the line, since we're closer to the end of home video now.

Home video an't going anywhere.

[Tom R VanSlambrouck]

True, but there's a difference between what you want and unrealistic expectations. The video quality matches exactly what is available at this time in Japan. Anyone that wanted it to be beyond that set themselves up for disappointment and should have put those expectations in check (same goes for the Ultraman BD). I knew what to expect. I didn't expect them to look as good as Infinty War. I just wanted something that was vasty superior to the DVDs I have and I have gotten that. They also look better than Toho's own BDs, which was quite surprising, so I'm happy about that too. I'm also super excited because it seems like Godzilla vs Gigan has the speech bubbles intact, so I can not wait to see those as they should have never been removed in the first place (at the very least should have been present on the DVDs and BDs that included the Jp version). Could they look better? Of course, but you can say that about every film. There is always room for improvement. Nevertheless, like I said, these are on par, if not slightly better, than what Japan currently has, and that is what matters most.

Kain SeaHawk just posted above that there's clearly better prints out there. While I do think Criterion did a great job on some of their minor edits, it would have been nice to get those new prints with more organic natural looking colors.

That being said I'm still excited for the set and can't wait to dig into it either on my Birthday or for Christmas.

Slightly off topic Toho has been giving U.S. fans some mixed signals, a few months ago they said they wanted to have a stronger US presence and even started that Godzilla Genesis program to help companies license the films for streaming platforms and yet they hold the older US versions that have cultural significance back just because they can't make a profit on it.

[XvGojira]

Home video an't going anywhere.

Considering that the home video sections of stores are getting smaller and smaller, I'd argue that it is. I don't think physical media will vanish completely, at least not any time soon, but it is not as big of a market as it used to be.