Gamera vs. The Ice Men (1966, Unmade)

Spinning flame-jetted turtles, space birds being chopped up like bologna, kids in shorts screaming for help...the original Gamera series was a strange mix of wacky fun!! The 90's Gamera films set a standard that other kaiju films are measured against! Discuss Gamera films here!!

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Gamera vs. The Ice Men (1966, Unmade)

Postby Enshohma » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:06 am

"Gamera The Giant Monster Versus The Ice Men From Outer Space"(1966, Unmade)

I finally got myself a copy of Shout Factory's release for "Gamera vs. Barugon" (1966), and immediately headed straight for the audio commentary.

No offense to the film itself, but I've seen it plenty of times before, either by itself, or with the MST3K comedy crew. And that being said, I was more interested in the obscure history of the Gamera franchise, which admittedly, no one touches upon beyond August Ragone's commentary. And maybe, MAYBE, the odd magazine article I don't have the time, nor money to effectively track down.

And with that said, its a real shame that the remaining Gamera DVDs from Shout Factory lack August's input, because I love hearing about giant monster movies that never were, and boy, did I get a welcome gift with the "Barugon" commentary!

*********

August will likely reply and improve upon the information that I'm about to share, but "Gamera The Giant Monster Versus The Ice Men From Outer Space" (or "Gamera vs. The Ice Men" for short) was the original concept for the 1966 sequel, and was surprisingly an ambitious story idea, even by unproduced Kaiju Eiga standards.

The original treatment deals with alien invaders, The Ice Men, whose ice-based bodies grotesquely exposes their internal organs and skeletons. They begin their invasion by setting off multiple volcanic eruptions across the globe, in hopes that the ash-soaked atmosphere will create a new ice age, and thus drive an unwitting humanity underground, so that they can have total control of the surface.

Mankind however insists on remaining above ground, and the Ice Men are forced to reveal themselves, enslaving the human race in the process.

Meanwhile, Gamera is set free from the Plan Z capsule (not unlike the events from the completed 1966 film), and flies back to Earth. And by fortunate timing and circumstance, joins humanity in its final battle against the Ice Men, who also unleashes their own monstrous champion, the simply titled Ice Giant.

Unlike other monsters from the Gamera series, who were wildly original creations of a considerably inhuman design, the Ice Giant was going to be a very humanoid entity, heavily inspired by the fearsome Jottun, or Frost Giants, of Norse mythology. Particularly the Ymir, who was said to be the most massive and ancient Frost Giant of them all.

And of whom the semi-tragic Venusian monster of the 1957 film "20 Million Miles To Earth" takes its name from.

"Gamera vs. The Ice Men" never got pass a basic story treatment, but the concept of a contradicting cold element against Gamera's fiery one remained, resulting in the finished version's title antagonist of Barugon.

However, the idea of a humanoid elemental being stuck with the Daiei production staff, who soon after replaced the element of ice for that of stone. And taking cues from the Jewish folklore creature known as the Golem, and a little bit of Japan's own supernatural legends, resulted in the creation of Daimajin, and his impressive trilogy of films from 1966 alone.

*********

I'm surprised that no one else brought up this awesome tidbit, and being an artist, I plan to do my own interpretations of the Ice Giant and his masters, not unlike the educated guess done with this Godzilla obscurity: http://enshohma.deviantart.com/art/Godz ... -142085547

Although knowing my luck, never before production sketches for the icy villains will suddenly pop up, half way into my project (like what happened with me and Ghost Godzilla), but ultimately, real design art would be better than non at all.

With all that out of the way, what's your opinions on this Gamera adventure that never was?

*********

Other Gamera Concepts That Were Never Made...?

I was going to ask about other unmade concepts in the Gamera franchise, in another thread. But since I've already started this one, might as well make some very quick notes here as well.

Here's some unmade Gamera bits that I'm familiar with, though all are lacking any official confirmation. So please, don't take my word completely on the following.

#1-"Gamera vs. Leoman" - may have simply been an alternative title / name for what ended up as "Gamera vs. Zigra", though others note it could have been a storyline totally different from the finished 1971 film: http://www.angelfire.com/film/unmadekai ... eoman.html

#2-"Gamera vs. Garasharp" is the most famous of all the unproduced Gamera films and foes, BUT there is some doubt wither Garasharp herself was only realized for the Gamera box set, that features the short film concerning the unmade movie. And further more, the real monster envisioned for the 1972 project was a two-headed beast (serpentine or not) dubbed something like 'Giant Monster W' or 'Giant Monster Double X'.

#3-Daiei's original plans for Gamera's return in 1995, was way more conservative from the final version; basically a family oriented film done in a relatively short, one hour length. And may have been planned only for home video release. One of the earliest teaser trailers for "Guardian of the Universe", which a different looking Gamera suit breathing fire into the camera, may have been a remnant from this original version, before said suit was rebuilt for the final version.

#4-Early concepts for what became "Gamera 2: Advent of Legion" featured the return of Viras, who like his original incarnation, was to be multiple alien squids that merged into a single giant creature. Ultimately a new monster, the Legion, was used instead.

#5-A totally different monster creation, a purely underwater monster, was a prototype for what became Iris for the film "Gamera 3". There's also rumors that an 'Evil Gamera', separate from the hostile 'hero' Gamera of the finished film, was also considered. In the end of course, the 'Evil Gamera' concept was simply incorporated into the main character himself.

#6-Around the time of "Gamera the Brave", Cartoon Network supposedly had plans for Gamera, possibly to use him in his own animated series. Unfortunately, and similar to Trandmasters' barely / never released Gamera toyline, Cartoon Network got cold feet, based on the character's relatively obscure status, and abandon the project early on.

#7- A fully original alien beast (or 'Planet Terra Monster') was planned to meet its end at the knife headed antagonist of "Gamera vs. Guillon" (1969), before being replaced by the cost cutting Space Gyaos.

#8-'The Magical NG Monster' from the "Gamera vs. Garasharp" segment, also known as Malcopkarappa, Marukoburappa, AND Malikopukarappa...is a real enigma for me. What's up with this guy? All I know is that he was seen in said segment, and no where else, outside some rare collectable toys based on him / it.

*********

I'm fully aware of the giant rats on the loose project "Nezura", which came close to actual production, before a slew of bad luck doomed the film. Even some test footage and a banned / destroyed teaser trailer was made before the end. And thus Daiei went on to do Gamera instead...but for the sake of no one else bringing it up, I'm listing it here anyway.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:51 am

This is the most amazing thread ever :eek:
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Postby August » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:42 pm

The real reason, I suppose, that "Gamera vs. The Ice Giant" has never been brought up before, is because virtually no one outside of Japan knew of this. Another reason is that a lot of the more prominent fans/writers with access to such materials, have spend the vast majority of their time concentrating on Toho's films (or they simply didn't know about it in the first place). "The Ice Giant" didn't have a name in the story treatment stage, because Daiei usually just left the antagonists' names blank, sometimes even up to the final screenplays (as with "Giant Monster W" and "Twin Monster X"; "Garasharp" was one of the possible names for the creature). So, the Ice Giant certainly would have eventually been granted a name, if the film went into development. And although I've never seen any Japanese documentation on this title (IIRC), we must assume that "Gamera vs. Leoman", became GAMERA VS. ZIGRA; although I wouldn't go around claiming that to be the Gospel, either. As for the "Malcopkarappa", Production Designer Akira Inoue would sketch concept designs for possible Gamera foes, and they would be either approved or marked "No Good". This "Phantom Monster" was one of them.

BTW, I reveal a couple of juicy tidbits about the aborted "Nezura" film, purposely left out of the BARUGON audio commentary, in my interview included on the "MST3K vs. Gamera" box set (available from Shout! Factory) — check it out when you can!
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:54 pm

August, I'm not a MST3K fan at all...but I really want to see your interview and the Chiodo Bros. stuff too...do you know what discs they are on so I can purchase them singly on Ebay?

And on a side note...I would have loved to have seen a Kaneko Viras :evil:
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Postby briizilla » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:54 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:August, I'm not a MST3K fan at all..



Blasphemy!!!!
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:56 pm

briizilla wrote:
king_ghidorah wrote:August, I'm not a MST3K fan at all..



Blasphemy!!!!


No, I just prefer the movies themselves, sans the peanut gallery.
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Postby Mac » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:34 pm

Takes no skill or balls to make fun of b-movies. Let me see the MST3K of Shawshank Redemption and then we'll talk.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:38 pm

Mac wrote:Takes no skill or balls to make fun of b-movies. Let me see the MST3K of Shawshank Redemption and then we'll talk.


Word to all our mothers
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:59 pm

Mac wrote:Takes no skill or balls to make fun of b-movies. Let me see the MST3K of Shawshank Redemption and then we'll talk.


It takes skill and balls to write funny jokes... which they do rather well.

And why would they make fun of a good movie? Granted, they've done it from time to time, but those are arguably by far the worst stuff they've done (ie the Night of the Living Dead and Dark Knight rifftrax).

It amazes me how many people write off MST3K as "guys talking over movies." They're comedians. But you're right, it takes no skill to make fun of things, right? Its not like "comedian" isn't an occupation built on that practice, right? :roll:

And besides, THEY'RE FANS just like us. They RAVED about how much they loved House on Haunted Hill as a movie when I saw them do the Rifftrax for it... doesn't make it any less funny. They just have a sense of humor about what they like, which more of us probably should.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:04 pm

I'm not saying they're not funny. I'm sure they are, but I suppose I'm just humorless when it comes to movies that I love. Can I see that some people could easily make fun of the Showa Gamera films? Yes. Do I hate them for doing it? No. It is important to be able to laugh about the things you love, but I don't feel like wasting the time to watch their versions of the films when I'd rather just watch the films themselves.

I get tired of MST3K fans being able to see things from the point of view I just explained. It seems like as soon as someone says they're not a fan they're attacked as being "humorless morons".

MST3K fans are some of the most devoted, but annoying fan bases I've ever come across on the internet.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:26 pm

EDIT: double post
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Postby MouthForWar » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:26 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:I'm not saying they're not funny. I'm sure they are, but I suppose I'm just humorless when it comes to movies that I love. Can I see that some people could easily make fun of the Showa Gamera films? Yes. Do I hate them for doing it? No. It is important to be able to laugh about the things you love, but I don't feel like wasting the time to watch their versions of the films when I'd rather just watch the films themselves.

I get tired of MST3K fans being able to see things from the point of view I just explained. It seems like as soon as someone says they're not a fan they're attacked as being "humorless morons".

MST3K fans are some of the most devoted, but annoying fan bases I've ever come across on the internet.


You're approaching it from a very level headed perspective. And whether you were serious or not, it is a good thing to admit you might be a bit humorless about what you like and that you just prefer to watch the films themselves, which is totally cool. And I'm with you about their fanbase. My comment was more in response to the accusation in the other post that they weren't talented.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sun Jan 29, 2012 10:40 pm

I think one reason, right or wrong, people are quick to crap on MST3K these days is because it seems in part, to have been a pre-cursor to the whole "Hipster" thing where suddenly things had to be liked "ironically."

It's kind of like Fincher's Fight Club in the fact that the people watching the film are often on a different wave lenght than the film maker...I get the that MST3K guys are fans of most the films they lampoon, but a lot of the people that watch MST3K aren't able to appreciate the films without having to make snide, "witty" remarks at the film's expense.
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Postby Tyler E. Martin » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:54 am

Off-topic much? This was a great idea for a thread. To get the discussion back on its intended course, I would love to see some fan art of the Ice Men and the Ice Giant, and some of the other stuff as well. It's fun to imagine what could have been.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:56 am

Tyler E. Martin wrote:Off-topic much? To get this thread back on its intended course, I would love to see some fan art of the Ice Men and the Ice Giant, and some of the other stuff as well. It's fun to imagine what could have been.


I'd argue that it's not THAT off topic but whatever. I too would like see fan art of all of the above
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 1:35 am

king_ghidorah wrote:I think one reason, right or wrong, people are quick to crap on MST3K these days is because it seems in part, to have been a pre-cursor to the whole "Hipster" thing where suddenly things had to be liked "ironically."

It's kind of like Fincher's Fight Club in the fact that the people watching the film are often on a different wave lenght than the film maker...I get the that MST3K guys are fans of most the films they lampoon, but a lot of the people that watch MST3K aren't able to appreciate the films without having to make snide, "witty" remarks at the film's expense.


Yeah, I can get behind this. I don't mind that a lot of my friends like MST3K, I just get no joy out of it personally, aside from two or three odd lines that Matt will constantly quote ("breathes real fire and causes real pain," will get a laugh out of me, for example). I don't think MST3K originated making silly comments at bad movies but it certainly seems to have reinforced and popularized it to a large extent. Like you said, I appreciate that most of the MST3K guys are actually fans (though some of the comments on the MST3K Vs. Gamera featurette really rubbed me the wrong way) but a lot of ITS fans can get really obnoxious at, say, the late night spook shows where many of us are watching something like the original Mothra and appreciating it for being, you know, an amazing movie, while those people insist at shouting their (far less witty) quips at the screen. It DOES take skill to write a lot of that stuff. I wish those asses would understand that and shut the hell up. >>

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Conversely, when I DO like comments shouted at the screen, I prefer it from myself and my friends at one of our movie nights as opposed to watching someone else do it on television. It's just more fun for me that way.
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Postby MouthForWar » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:51 am

king_ghidorah wrote:I think one reason, right or wrong, people are quick to crap on MST3K these days is because it seems in part, to have been a pre-cursor to the whole "Hipster" thing where suddenly things had to be liked "ironically."

It's kind of like Fincher's Fight Club in the fact that the people watching the film are often on a different wave lenght than the film maker...I get the that MST3K guys are fans of most the films they lampoon, but a lot of the people that watch MST3K aren't able to appreciate the films without having to make snide, "witty" remarks at the film's expense.


Agreed.
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Postby August » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:37 am

I didn't know this was an MST3K thread... :?
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Postby briizilla » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:55 am

Mac wrote:Takes no skill or balls to make fun of b-movies. Let me see the MST3K of Shawshank Redemption and then we'll talk.


It takes no balls? What the...

They've riffed all the Lord of the Rings movies, Harry Potter, Iron Man and freaking Casablanca.
:roll:

Humor is in the eye of the beholder but if those guys aren't funny they wouldn't still be selling DVD sets, be blowing up on Netflix and doing live shows(which I got to see last week) around the country.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:43 pm

So how did the writers actually write Gamera's foes in the scripts? "Nameless monster with nameless powers attacks Gamera. Gamera loses. Gamera comes back and wins. Little boys wave as he flies off into the sunset??"

In all seriousness though, I am very curious. Did the writers at least have the alien plots worked out too or was that written in at a later time as well??

Also, who wrote most of the Showa Gamera screenplays and did Yuasa have any sort of creative feedback into the scripts?? Thanks in advance August!! :D
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Postby August » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:22 am

king_ghidorah wrote:So how did the writers actually write Gamera's foes in the scripts? "Nameless monster with nameless powers attacks Gamera."


Pretty much.
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Postby Enshohma » Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:34 am

king_ghidorah wrote:This is the most amazing thread ever :eek:


Thanks!

August wrote:The real reason, I suppose, that "Gamera vs. The Ice Giant" has never been brought up before, is because virtually no one outside of Japan knew of this. Another reason is that a lot of the more prominent fans/writers with access to such materials, have spend the vast majority of their time concentrating on Toho's films (or they simply didn't know about it in the first place).


It's a really shame on this fact; I know Godzilla is more famous, beloved and all, but there's probably a whole wealth of Gamera information that could fill an entire book, or at least a high end, no-nonsense web-site. Especially since there's undoubtedly more unmade monsters and related abandon concepts, that as you've mentioned beforehand, are probably unknown beyond Japan. And to be honest, finding out about 'The Ice Giant' through your audio commentary really made my day, so thanks for that!

August wrote:"The Ice Giant" didn't have a name in the story treatment stage, because Daiei usually just left the antagonists' names blank, sometimes even up to the final screenplays (as with "Giant Monster W" and "Twin Monster X"; "Garasharp" was one of the possible names for the creature). So, the Ice Giant certainly would have eventually been granted a name, if the film went into development.


For me, even a basic descriptive title like that (Ice Giant) is better than making up some original, fan fiction style name, so I don't mind just referring to the character as 'The Ice Giant'. Plus, the extra information of Garasharp and her working titles / names was a big help too.

I'm assuming 'Twin Monster X' was in reference towards Garasharps babies?

August wrote:And although I've never seen any Japanese documentation on this title (IIRC), we must assume that "Gamera vs. Leoman", became GAMERA VS. ZIGRA; although I wouldn't go around claiming that to be the Gospel, either.


Still though, much better to have some idea of the whole Leoman / Zigra situation, than once again being completely in the dark here.

August wrote:As for the "Malcopkarappa", Production Designer Akira Inoue would sketch concept designs for possible Gamera foes, and they would be either approved or marked "No Good". This "Phantom Monster" was one of them.


I remember in the interviews from the Gamera retrospective special (from the 1965 film's DVD), that the production staff mentioned many other random monster designs done for the Gamera series, not unlike the early creature designs that were done for "Godzilla the Animated Series" who ultimately never made it into the final show.

This Gamera related tidbit is as mouth watering as the rejected robots from "Super Robot Red Baron" series bible...Afro King!

With that said though, Malcopkarappa probably only gets more attention due to his cameo in the aforementioned special, not to mention the limitedly released figures.

August wrote:BTW, I reveal a couple of juicy tidbits about the aborted "Nezura" film, purposely left out of the BARUGON audio commentary, in my interview included on the "MST3K vs. Gamera" box set (available from Shout! Factory) — check it out when you can!


I have that MST3K vs. Gamera box set, and your interview was the second thing a watched from in. As much as I love this comedy show, and the people behind it, you can diffidently tell they really have no idea about the basic history of almost all of the films they rift upon, even if they do give them some well deserved props (are all of them Guillon fans or what?).

The inclusion of your interview helped set the record strait on the Gamera franchise, and I appreciate that Shout Factory even considered such a move...sorry if I'm kissing up TOO much, but I really did enjoy all these extras from both the MST3K and Gamera sets.

kiryugoji04 wrote:I don't think MST3K originated making silly comments at bad movies but it certainly seems to have reinforced and popularized it to a large extent. Like you said, I appreciate that most of the MST3K guys are actually fans (though some of the comments on the MST3K Vs. Gamera featurette really rubbed me the wrong way) but a lot of ITS fans can get really obnoxious at, say, the late night spook shows where many of us are watching something like the original Mothra and appreciating it for being, you know, an amazing movie, while those people insist at shouting their (far less witty) quips at the screen. It DOES take skill to write a lot of that stuff. I wish those asses would understand that and shut the hell up.


I can relate towards this a lot; please leave movie riffing in the hands of trained (Best Brains) professions, and do not try to attempt so at home OR in public!!!

Tyler E. Martin wrote:Off-topic much? This was a great idea for a thread. To get the discussion back on its intended course, I would love to see some fan art of the Ice Men and the Ice Giant, and some of the other stuff as well. It's fun to imagine what could have been.


Like I said in the first post, this is diffidently something I'm going to try my hand at. :)
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Postby Enshohma » Sat Feb 11, 2012 1:59 am

Just as a quick note, I started up my own blog, and made mention of the project yet again, with a teaser of my version for the Ice Giant: http://www.enshohmacorner.blogspot.com/ ... -1965.html

There will be follow-up posts featuring more clear views of my designs.
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Postby Enshohma » Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:00 am

UPDATE: What the heck, here's the sketches anyway, only because I love you guys! You can check them all out here:

http://www.enshohmacorner.blogspot.com/ ... tches.html
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:18 am

Great stuff man!!!
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