Gamera 3: Revenge of Iris Talkback

Spinning flame-jetted turtles, space birds being chopped up like bologna, kids in shorts screaming for help...the original Gamera series was a strange mix of wacky fun!! The 90's Gamera films set a standard that other kaiju films are measured against! Discuss Gamera films here!!

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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:18 pm

I agree that GOTU/G2 Kaneko is better than G3/GMK Kaneko.

I prefer GOTU and G2 for their more grounded approach. He's not dealing with all this spiritual, mythological symbolism bullsh*t that he is in the later films... GOTU and G2 (G2 especially) are more Nolan-like in their approach.

To quote myself from page one (cuz laziness)

I wrote:And speaking of vague, we also have the game designer and the fortune teller characters who... well, I don't know what... I've seen this movie TONS of times and still get kinda confused about who they are or why they are there. The movie attempts to tell us this information, but it never comes across as a cohesive part of the story. It honestly feels like they could have been taken out of the script altogether. They are hollow plot devices, nothing more, nothing less. The biggest problem with this movie is that this is the one that gets up its own ass with the mythology and doesn't bother to elaborate on it. It just mentions things and drops them.


Those characters are like the homeless prophet character in GMK. They make no sense and it just feels like Kaneko is trying too hard to add to his own mythology... its basically him smelling his own farts, so to speak.

Honestly, I don't even feel like this movie makes Iris' origin very straightforward either. Its like they start to explain a couple things, then completely forget about it.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:30 pm

that's basically the way i feel and for me personally, i find it more "offensive" than i do in GMK.

in GMK, Kaneko is effectively attempting to establish an entire Godzilla universe...in G3, it always kinda felt to me like he had this established universe and then decided, "NOW i'm gonna throw in a whole bunch of mysticism and wonder and spirituality" why no just keep things in the same vein/tone as the previous two films? it just feels a little incongruous when comparing this film to the other two.

that could be why this is some people's favorites...maybe those people wanted this type of movie all along...but for me, I feel like G2 is the pitch-perfect Gamera film, and then G3 is just, as Mouth put it, up its own ass.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Aug 10, 2012 11:01 pm

...G3 is very much like GOTU. There's not as much Mysticism, but there's a ton of it. Remember the tablet on Gamera's back? GOTU is like 50% MYSTICNONSENSE and 50% HARD SCIFI NOLANESQUE STUFF

G2 goes 100% HARD SCIFI WHATEVER whereas G3 goes 100% MYSTICNONSENSE. So I don't think it's him going "NOW" I think it's him saying "AND LET'S DO THAT STUFF AGAIN!" Which makes sense, because Gamera's origin in these films is a very mystic/fantasy kind of thing. I mean, yeah he's a bio engineered monster, but it's related to the Mu/Atlantis and all that jazz.

I think the dead professor ghost man serves wayyy more of a purpose than the game designer/fortune teller do. I also think they make sense, but there's just a much better and more straightforward way of telling these origins that would make them so much less convoluted and therefore wayyy more enjoyable.

And G2 is the best <3
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Postby kidnicky » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:29 am

MouthForWar wrote:I agree that GOTU/G2 Kaneko is better than G3/GMK Kaneko.

I prefer GOTU and G2 for their more grounded approach. He's not dealing with all this spiritual, mythological symbolism bullsh*t that he is in the later films... GOTU and G2 (G2 especially) are more Nolan-like in their approach.

To quote myself from page one (cuz laziness)

I wrote:And speaking of vague, we also have the game designer and the fortune teller characters who... well, I don't know what... I've seen this movie TONS of times and still get kinda confused about who they are or why they are there. The movie attempts to tell us this information, but it never comes across as a cohesive part of the story. It honestly feels like they could have been taken out of the script altogether. They are hollow plot devices, nothing more, nothing less. The biggest problem with this movie is that this is the one that gets up its own ass with the mythology and doesn't bother to elaborate on it. It just mentions things and drops them.


Those characters are like the homeless prophet character in GMK. They make no sense and it just feels like Kaneko is trying too hard to add to his own mythology... its basically him smelling his own farts, so to speak.

Honestly, I don't even feel like this movie makes Iris' origin very straightforward either. Its like they start to explain a couple things, then completely forget about it.



I -LOVE- this movie,but yeah,I have no idea what was up with those characters.
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Postby Cookie » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:27 am

I rank Kaneko's Kaiju films as the following:
GMK
GOTU
G2
G3

I've always found GOTU to be a great kaiju film. GMK has the SLIGHT advantage of GOTU though. G2 Is a straight up Kaiju bash. G3 just seems.... odd to me. Something about G3 always gets me cringing and I'm not sure why. Maybe because a lot of it doesn't actually feel like a Kaiju film... idk.

But yeah.. GMK and GOTU are pretty much tied for me, while G2 isn't too far behind them... G3 is nowhere near these other films for me.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:38 am

G2
G3
GOTU
GMK

That's how I'd rank em. Although these days I'm not sure if I prefer GOTU or G3 more... So much of G3 is just nonsense to me... but I love Gamera's character arc and Iris and so many scenes more than anything in GOTU. I'd say G3 beats it out just barely.

And GMK is definitely on the bottom... I like that film, but to me, it isn't the mind blower that it is for a lot of people.

But yeah, G3 is too convoluted for sure... I still don't even really get Iris' origin or what its supposed to be. Something about a mutated Gyaos, but its a protector that family's shrine or something? I've seen this movie like two dozen times and I still don't understand it.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sat Aug 11, 2012 10:54 am

I think my rating would be the same as Mouth's. Though, it really pains me to put G3 over GOTU. GOTU has probably the best human plot/characters of the whole trilogy BUT G3 does have a pretty cool arc for Gamera, Iris is like something out of Evangelion and it's awesome visually, and the effects are simply amazing. Again, G3 is the Dark Knight Returns of Gamera. It takes Gamera about as dark as it can go. Not something that should be the direction for the rest of the series but a great one off. It still pains me everytime I think of Yuasa seeing his child friendly creation in Gamera 3. Most people that were there when Yuasa saw the film say he was visibly disturbed by the movie. :(

As much love as Kaneko gets...I'll continue to trumpet Yuasa for as long as I can. It's hard to make children's movies like that and I think he did it well. Gamera vs. Guiron is, and hopefully always will be, one of my favorite movies of all time.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:08 am

I always thought Irys looked more like a Final Fantasy summon than anything :lol:

As for how I'd rank Kaneko's kaiju films:
G2
G3
GMK
GOTU
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:12 am

Yeah....I think GMK has some intersting stuff in it BUT I've never really liked it all that much.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:19 am

So far nobody has answered my question. Who/what is Irys and why is a mutated Gyaos protecting a family's shrine? :lol:
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:32 am

MouthForWar wrote:So far nobody has answered my question. Who/what is Irys and why is a mutated Gyaos protecting a family's shrine? :lol:


I always gathered that Irys was just some kind of uber Gyaos (what with them having similar DNA and it having the ability to fuse with a human ala Gamera's link). The Shrine supposedly held a demon, didn't it? I just imagine that sometime in the past of the universe Irys was stored there and that family was to guard it. The movie just says he's a weird Gyaos and that there was a demon in the shrine that had to be sort of taken care of. As for how Irys got there, that's never explained.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Sat Aug 11, 2012 11:36 am

MekaGojira3k wrote:
MouthForWar wrote:So far nobody has answered my question. Who/what is Irys and why is a mutated Gyaos protecting a family's shrine? :lol:


I always gathered that Irys was just some kind of uber Gyaos (what with them having similar DNA and it having the ability to fuse with a human ala Gamera's link). The Shrine supposedly held a demon, didn't it? I just imagine that sometime in the past of the universe Irys was stored there and that family was to guard it. The movie just says he's a weird Gyaos and that there was a demon in the shrine that had to be sort of taken care of. As for how Irys got there, that's never explained.



Yep, my thoughts exactly. Very Prometheus like as far as the explanations behind the beastie lol
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Postby lhb412 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:07 pm

I've reach the end of my Gamera odyssey... for now. Hopefully I'll see The Brave by the end of the month, then start on the Showa series after. Today I watched the film that enraptured and inflamed the fandom in a way only GINO and GFW can compare in recent history (with different reasons and results).

Gamera 3 (dons Rocky and Bullwinkle announcer voice)

The Revenge of Iris
(or)
The Incomplete Struggle!


Far slicker, far more modern, far more mature than any kaiju film released then or in the following decade. It's no wonder it became the pinnacle of kaiju films in the minds of so many fans: it was the one in this cynical age that you could show people and they wouldn't laugh. Nowadays I think that's pretty stupid idea, and after decades of people demanding grim and gritty-ness from genre fare the pendulum has swung back and the whimsical and campy have been reevaluated and reappraised among nerds of all stripes (good).

But let's look at G3 as a movie and not as the stuff that accumulated around it. Does it hold up? Yes. While not as tight or satisfying as G2, G3 delivers interesting ideas that comment on the genre, the franchise, and ties up the themes of the trilogy and delivers the most polished and ambitious special effects ever in a Japanese kaiju film... Oh, and it's entertaining and often thrilling.

I appreciate the economy and tightness of G2, but G3 really doesn't have any interest in that. A slower film, it's lets things sit for a while and stew as the various parts of the plot are brought in until they all come together in the third act. Like I said, I find G2 more satisfying, but there's nothing wrong with this very different approach. The only cavat? I think clarifying Asukura and Kurata's motives and beliefs would help some (or maybe illustrating their zeal more). As is they're only slightly less opaque than the villains in the first Hellboy film, and they have the disadvantage of lacking a clockwork, nazi, zombie, ninja.

I also like the whole structure of this trilogy: a first film that sets up that conflict, a second film that's a self contained story that has the main story arc ticking away in the background almost unnoticed, then bringing it all together in a final film that takes the plot introduced in the first film to it's climax while tying in the seemingly unconnected second film. Well done.

The funny thing about the Gamera trilogy is that upon rewatching I'm surprised by just how much it honors the old Gamera franchise it supposedly dumps on. Asagi's connection to Gamera is a reformulation of the connection between Gamera and the kid main characters in the old films, Gamera is a heroic defender of Earth (really get this from G2), the kids who come to Gamera's seemingly lifeless body in G2 and instigate his revival, even the freakin' healing coma is present!

Even the darkness of Gamera 3 fits in with the Gamera legacy: it's plays with our preconceptions of Gamera. We see a film that's darker and with a scarier Gamera who inadvertently decimates a city and are left to wonder if Gamera has forgotten about the human race - but it's all a blind! A trick! In the third act we find Gamera is still the heroic defender he has always been. We even have the villianous Kurata basically quoting the aliens from Gamera vs. Viras in saying Gamera's weakness is his fondness for humans!
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Postby king_ghidorah » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Once again, I great write up!

I also find it kind of cool that the Hesei trilogy isn't as removed from the Showa series as most of us previously thought. Gamera destroying things is not a new concept...in fact, it's as old as you can get in the original film.

Also, great examination of the pendulum swinging back around to non-cynical films. If you want a dark Gamera then these films are probably pitch perfect. I'd prefer for Gamera to be lighter than this trilogy usually but I'll admit that's because I've matured since originally seeing the trilogy. I saw the trilogy for the first time in high school and back then I thought these films were the pinnacle of kaiju film making. The only Showa film I liked was Guiron, I thought Gyaos and Jiger were awful. The older I've gotten the more I can appreciate the stuff that doesn't take itself seriously, but if you want to show someone how "cool" a kaiju film can be...or get some angsty teen to appreciate the genre...then look no further than Kaneko's films.

Oh, and I see lots of mentions about this film being slow....is it just me or is G2 pretty slow too? (Also, G2 probably has the weakest human characters of the trilogy and it's the fan fave...kind of odd)
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:34 pm

I always gathered G3 was the fan fave. I've rarely encountered as much praise for G2 as I see here.
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Postby lhb412 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:37 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:Oh, and I see lots of mentions about this film being slow....is it just me or is G2 pretty slow too?


I don't think so. I think G2 has a driving narrative, tried in true in the style of Them! and Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

Oh, and the G2 characters are my favorite. Like I mentioned in that thread, I love how much we get to know them despite having no backstory or pure character scenes. We get to know quite a bit about them in the purely functional, further the alien invasion plot scenes.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:40 pm

MekaGojira3k wrote:I always gathered G3 was the fan fave. I've rarely encountered as much praise for G2 as I see here.


This is true. This is the one place where people seem to prefer G2. G3 is the fave for most of the uninitiated...but we ARE initiated. (Can't get Bane's voice out of my head....TDK is a better movie but I just keep dropping Bane quotes left and right lol)

And I don't think Legion is in the same league as a classic like Them!. I love G2 but Them! is one of the best sci fi films ever made.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:52 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:
MekaGojira3k wrote:I always gathered G3 was the fan fave. I've rarely encountered as much praise for G2 as I see here.


This is true. This is the one place where people seem to prefer G2. G3 is the fave for most of the uninitiated...but we ARE initiated. (Can't get Bane's voice out of my head....TDK is a better movie but I just keep dropping Bane quotes left and right lol)

And I don't think Legion is in the same league as a classic like Them!. I love G2 but Them! is one of the best sci fi films ever made.


...so do you feel like other fan's opinions aren't valid or did you just really want to use a Bane quote?

I'd rather watch G2 one hundred times before I watch Them! again. :/
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Postby lhb412 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:54 pm

^You must have been.

In my mind the list of totally brilliant giant-monster-on-the-loose films from American begins and ends with King Kong and Them!
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:55 pm

I don't think anyone is ever going to convince me that this trilogy is anything other than God-tier kaiju filmmaking. :lol:
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:58 pm

lhb412 wrote:^You must have been.

In my mind the list of totally brilliant giant-monster-on-the-loose films from American begins and ends with King Kong and Them!


I think it's good, but...I like G2 more so.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:59 pm

I shouldn't have to answer you MekaGojira3K. You should know that I respect most opinions...even those as hilariously wrong as Jared's :wink:.

So, yes, I just really wanted to put a Bane quote in there.

I still think the characters in G2 are weak sauce and that the pacing is a wee bit slow. I'll watch it again soon to see if I have a diff opinion. G3 is slow as well but there's a sense of building tension as the film progresses that makes for an enticing watch.
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Postby lhb412 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:02 pm

^I disagree!

:lol:
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Tue Sep 04, 2012 10:02 pm

I think the characters aren't really "weak sauce", as you put it. I think the characters in G3 have more to them, but I don't really care for them.
My favorite Gamera trilogy cast are the folk in the first film honestly.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:24 pm

the GOTU characters are the best in the Kaneko trilogy.

which means that yes, the characters in G3 are good since a lot of them come back, but the NEW characters in G3 are pretty weak, imho.
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