Noriaki Yuasa and Shusuke Kaneko...

Spinning flame-jetted turtles, space birds being chopped up like bologna, kids in shorts screaming for help...the original Gamera series was a strange mix of wacky fun!! The 90's Gamera films set a standard that other kaiju films are measured against! Discuss Gamera films here!!

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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:15 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:
jellydonut25 wrote:i think you can get a feel for that from their films, Kaneko's films come off as a little high-and-mighty and preachy and you can kinda tell that the guy behind the camera thinks he is creating these magnum opuses (opussi?) and is above reproach.


0_o

I have NEVER felt that, especially given how downright goofy his Ultra series work can be.


I've ALWAYS felt the same way about Kaneko as KG and jelly.

His Ultra stuff may lean more towards the goofy side, but all that means is that he's approaching it differently than the Gamera films. I think jelly and KG's stance is pretty accurate when it comes to his Gamera and Godzilla work
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Postby jellydonut25 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:32 pm

I can only go by what I've seen, Gamera, Godzilla, Death Note, but given that, I've always felt like Kaneko wanted me to get something MORE from his movies than a good story and entertainment value.

I have enjoyed the movies, but the pretentiousness is almost palpable. Doesn't mean I didn't like the movies...
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:51 pm

jellydonut25 wrote:I can only go by what I've seen, Gamera, Godzilla, Death Note, but given that, I've always felt like Kaneko wanted me to get something MORE from his movies than a good story and entertainment value.

I have enjoyed the movies, but the pretentiousness is almost palpable. Doesn't mean I didn't like the movies...


Yeah, I agree. I love the Gamera movies, but this is spot on.

Just because his Ultraman work is silly doesn't mean anything in regards to how he's approached all those films.
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 3:54 pm

Well, in analyzing the tone of the Gamera movies, it's important to consider the impact that Kazunori Ito had on them, as well.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:31 pm

Huh. Agree to disagree then because I've never felt that way at ALL so whatever. Gamera 3 I can kind of see but even then, it's never something that crossed my mind.

jellydonut25 wrote:I can only go by what I've seen, Gamera, Godzilla, Death Note...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar2ZdXDRWy0
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Postby king_ghidorah » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:17 pm

Well, I think we (the internet) are often guilty of forgetting that people can change. There's a deff 'vibe' that most of us seem to have picked up from his work in the past and his statements made in public. Maybe somewhere along the way he changed a bit...lightened up. Wouldn't be the first person to let go of their ego and lighten up with age. That Max clip doesn't seem Kaneko like at all...but I will admit it's well done, very fun and actually reminds me of Showa era Gamera a little in terms of slapstick appeal.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 7:36 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:Well, I think we (the internet) are often guilty of forgetting that people can change. There's a deff 'vibe' that most of us seem to have picked up from his work in the past and his statements made in public. Maybe somewhere along the way he changed a bit...lightened up. Wouldn't be the first person to let go of their ego and lighten up with age. That Max clip doesn't seem Kaneko like at all...but I will admit it's well done, very fun and actually reminds me of Showa era Gamera a little in terms of slapstick appeal.


Well Ultraman Max predates Death Note, which Jelly cited as being an example of Kaneko's pretentiousness, so... But yeah, the whole episode is that way. And the episode he directed either right after or before, I can't remember which. And episode 12, which features a monster that attacks the city because it hates a rock band's hit single. His other episodes tend to be pretty straightforward, a la Gamera 1. He also made a comedy musical immediately after GMK, so if he's "lightened up," it's definitely not been a recent thing.

In any case, looking purely at his work... I just don't see it. Except for MAYBE Gamera 3, but even then I'm straining to see it. His films have a certain gravity in how they handle the effects of monster attacks in a real world-ish scenerio but I think that's a perfectly legitimate approach and the only film that's really trying to SAY something is GMK and I think the message in question is absolutely relevant and not pretentious in the least.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:37 pm

I don't really see the pretentiousness thing.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:45 pm

I mean, is it just because the films take themselves as seriously as they do when most of the genre tends to be more light-hearted? But even that only really applies to Gamera 2 and 3.
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:47 pm

Yeah, like his style, love it, hate it, whatever, I just don't see where the word "pretentious" applies. What is the false pretense?
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:48 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:I mean, is it just because the films take themselves as seriously as they do when most of the genre tends to be more light-hearted? But even that only really applies to Gamera 2 and 3.


And that would seem to make the original Godzilla and Rodan pretentious, too...
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:51 pm

The Oxford English Dictionary wrote:pretentious |priˈten ch əs|
adjective
attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed : a pretentious literary device.


Yeah... Kaneko's films seem pretty genuine to me. GMK is the only thing I see that COULD fit that definition but, again, I think the message that movie carries is absolutely legitimate, even if aspects may be a little muddled by the imperfect script.
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Postby king_ghidorah » Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:54 pm

Dude, that's a pretty douche move. You seriously want to define the meaning of the word to Mouth, Jelly and I like we're freaking morons!?
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:02 pm

king_ghidorah wrote:Dude, that's a pretty douche move. You seriously want to define the meaning of the word to Mouth, Jelly and I like we're freaking morons!?


I'm assuming that's directed at me, and I find it a bizarre misinterpretation of my tone. I was being explicit in explaining what I wanted clarified.

The tone of this thread has been pretty friendly. Let's not get unduly bellicose.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:11 pm

No, I'm assuming that was directed at me because I quoted Oxford, which I'd consulted to double-check the definition to be sure we were on the same page. I meant no offense but by all means...
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:26 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:No, I'm assuming that was directed at me because I quoted Oxford, which I'd consulted to double-check the definition to be sure we were on the same page. I meant no offense but by all means...
:kitty:


Oh, I didn't even notice that part of your post! Sorry, I didn't mean to take credit for your "douche move."

And it reads to me like you were including it to provide context/clarity on your own comments.
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:38 pm

Sometimes a definition is just a definition.

I do think that maybe GMK feels a bit pretentious, but I think that's, as Jared said, more to do with its failings script-wise.
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:28 pm

YEAH I KNOW WHAT THE WORD MEANS, THANKS GUYS :roll:

And AGAIN, just because Kaneko's Ultraman stuff isn't pretentious doesn't mean his Gamera and Godzilla movies aren't. It means he's approaching Ultraman differently. ALSO, I don't think his Ultraman output should be used as a shining example since he didn't even write any of his Ultraman episodes.

Everything he's written has a particular kind of self importance to it that isn't only glaring, but at its worst, it takes away from my enjoyment of the film (GMK being the biggest example).

Look, I'm a Kaneko fan. He's made some of my favorite movies of ALL time. But he's also the guy who has thrown his own crew under the bus, talked sh*t about the old Gamera films with their creator in the same room, said he took the job for Gamera because it was "his chance to make a Godzilla movie" (hence why they feel more like Godzilla than Gamera at times), talks about how Godzilla should "always be pure evil," slammed the fanbase and got himself blacklisted from G-Fest, (which I actually found a certain bit of humor in because I happened to agree with him and found the hyper sensitive backlash on G-Fan's behalf to be downright idiotic), etc. Sorry, but to me, those are pretentious moves on his part.

The guy is a blowhard... I know there are Kaneko fanboys all over, but that's ALWAYS how he's come off to me. It seemed to get really bad around Gamera 3 and after.

I'm a big fan, but he reminds me a lot of Nolan in a few ways. Great film maker, seems like a nice guy who is a TRUE AND BLUE fan, but in a lot of cases when it comes to his own material, he comes off as having his head up his ass and sniffing his own farts.

And I'll say it a third time in case nobody is paying attention. I'M A FAN, and I don't even think that "pretentious" is always a bad thing... every artist should be allowed a certain amount of pretension. I'm just pointing out that more often than not, this is how he's come off to me.
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:56 pm

You're largely addressing what he does in public, not what actually goes on in his movies. As a filmmaker, sure, you make perfectly reasonable points but I don't care what kind of person he is, I'm looking purely at his film work and I'm not convinced.

And hell, I don't even qualify as a Kaneko fanboy. He's pretty far down my list of favorite tokusatsu creators.
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Postby MouthForWar » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:01 pm

kiryugoji04 wrote:You're largely addressing what he does in public, not what actually goes on in his movies. I don't care what kind of person he is, I'm looking purely at his film work and I'm not convinced.

And hell, I don't even qualify as a Kaneko fanboy. He's pretty far down my list of favorite tokusatsu creators.


Well I DID say that his written work exceeds an air of self importance, did I not? To me, that is an extension of those things I mentioned about his character.
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Postby eabaker » Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:03 pm

MouthForWar wrote:
kiryugoji04 wrote:You're largely addressing what he does in public, not what actually goes on in his movies. I don't care what kind of person he is, I'm looking purely at his film work and I'm not convinced.

And hell, I don't even qualify as a Kaneko fanboy. He's pretty far down my list of favorite tokusatsu creators.


Well I DID say that his written work exceeds an air of self importance, did I not? To me, that is an extension of those things I mentioned about his character.


Can you provide some specific examples of scenes/shots/lines of dialogue that you feel come off as self important? I honestly just don't see it.
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Postby jellydonut25 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:23 am

Soooo....NOBODY thinks GMK is like, one of the top 5 most pretentious Godzilla movies???

"I'm sure that's what he meant, when he made that gesture in the cell!!!!"
oh, that "completely random" gesture of raising his hand up in the air? THAT was a super-significant move that meant that random stone on the ground is super important?

"Look! It's gone!"
Wait. Back up. Show me that AGAIN. What's gone? Where? Why? How? Is this in any way, shape or form important? No? Then why are you pointing it out as being super-important with your ominous music and stunned faces and video replays?

And that's just one movie.
And that's just two examples of insane pretentiousness in one movie that immediately spring to mind.
And those are just the most egregious two examples I can think of at the moment in that one movie that immediately spring to mind, while I'm sure there are many other little examples that give a whole general feeling of "this movie has its head up its own ass".
(and btw, I'm slightly over-exaggerating, because again, let me remind everyone, I like GMK...as faulty and pretentious as it is)
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Postby kiryugoji04 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:26 am

That doesn't seem pretentious, just things that fail to come across thanks to the flawed nature of the script. Poor conveyance ≠ pretentiousness. :|
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Postby MekaGojira3k » Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:04 am

Yeah, I'd say that's just a flaw in a film.
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Postby MouthForWar » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:24 pm

I think jelly was referring to the ridiculous amount of grandeur and seriousness that such idiotic plot elements are presented with in the film.

In which case I agree with him.
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